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Post by Admin on Oct 30, 2017 23:19:24 GMT
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Post by Sarver on Nov 4, 2017 1:35:55 GMT
Recently, the arise of the topic concerning Catalonia declaring independence from Spain has brought the question of , how long will this last? Catalonia is now a sovereign nation. The Constitution and laws of Spain are inapplicable in Catalonia, just as the laws of Catalonia are inapplicable in Spain. Catalonia wanting to become its own is a true test of the new world order. As the Washington Post stated, “We have won the freedom to build a new country”, so why does Spain want to hang on to Catalonia? Rajoy can't force the Catalan people to stay with Spain and direct rule, probably accompanied by more heavy-handed policing, is just going to make Spain more unpopular in the region. Also, many other questions come to mind like, will local people have self determination, or will they be compelled by others and will democracy be able to make change, or will an oppressive mind mire the world from the past? Spain’s best chance at retaining Catalonia should be to start talking with it, and respect its’ democracy, this should be true of the government of any country made up of democratic territories. Furthermore, in the Foxs News article it says, “Catalonia's refusal to backtrack from its independence threats triggered Article 155 of the Spanish Constitution, the government said, which allows central authorities to take over control of any of the country’s 17 regions.” In other words, the justification of the authority of the executive component of government is the protection of the people’s property and well-being, so when such protection is no longer present, or when the acts against the interests of the people are in command , they have a right to resist his authority. Does this then provoke motivation for other countries to break away and feel as if they can maintain stability as their own country? Catalonia is the richest area of Spain. California is the richest state in the US. What would Trump do if California seceded? All in all, an event like this happened with the U.S. back in the day and resulted in the Civil War to maintain the union. It is hard to predict which path this situation will take and how things will end.
Can a government really write a law which invalidates the right of self-determination?
Does Catalonia provoke other unions to declare independence and become its own?
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Post by Martin on Nov 4, 2017 17:22:36 GMT
Catalonia’s push for independence from Spain connects to unit one of our studies in a number of ways. A direct quote from an article in Fox News regarding the situation says, “An English translation of the constitution states that should an autonomous community break the law or disregard the constitution, the Spanish government can – after following certain procedures – “take the measures necessary in order to compel the [community] forcibly to meet said obligations, or in order to protect [Spain’s] general interests.” This quote pertains to the term of power and a twist on John Locke’s perspective of government. The Spanish government has ultimate control over the community in this case. John Locke said that if the government tries to take away the natural rights of the people, they have the right to overthrow it. Although, it seems like the opposite here. In addition, the people of Spain disregarding the government’s constitution in a way let’s the government remove the people of power and forces them to follow their laws. Catalona declaring independence from Spain is much like the colonists declaring independence from Great Britain’s rule. They were unsatisfied with how the sovereignty had ruled them and so this was them breaking away. An article from the Washington Post says, “Tusk’s remarks mirror fears in Catalonia that the Spanish government will employ riot police and harsh tactics to take back control of the region.” This is an example of tyranny, a cruel and oppressive government. If the Spanish government were to do this, it would be interfering with the people’s God given rights, life, liberty, and property. Their freedom is taken away and fear is then installed in the people to do what the government wants. This does not benefit the common good. Another quote from this article reads “Catalans must be protected from an intolerant minority that is awarding itself ownership of Catalonia and is trying to subject all Catalans to the yoke of its own doctrine.” When the minority begins raising their voice, this raises conflict against the majority, and so it is hard to know how long this independence will be effective.
Q1: Do you think Catalonia’s breakaway will create a movement for other regions to do the same thing?
Q2: If the Spanish government becomes forceful and demanding in following its rules, what does this look like for the people? Will they become dependent?
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Post by Martin on Nov 4, 2017 17:31:14 GMT
@sarver Going off that quote "We have won the freedom to build a new country", I also wonder why Spain wishes to hold on to Catalonia. In my opinion, it is more of a control thing. Spain wants that power of 'owning' something. They can also benefit from Catalonia's economic success. I feel Catalonia's declaration of Independence from Spain frightens other unions. When they see how the Spanish government reacted to this change, it is a little intimidating. I think they want to be able to follow the acts of Catalonia but are too afraid to do so. Your post was very well written by the way! You posed some good questions.
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Post by Sarver on Nov 5, 2017 12:58:25 GMT
@martin Answering your first question of "do you think Catalonia's breakaway will create a movement for other regions to do the same thing?", my answer to that is yes I believe so. Catalonia has made a bold attempt to want to break free from Spain and control it's own union by itself. If other countries see that they may want to declare independence then they may have a greater confidence to them. I liked your quote of , " Catalans must be protected from an intolerant minority." So usually, in cases where the minority does not matter, in this one it created a sense of conflict with the majority making it harder to determine what is the right or wrong way to do things. Also, thank you on the comment, your post was full of great insight and thought!
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Post by Croll on Nov 5, 2017 16:39:02 GMT
When analyzing a movement of independence from Catalonia, it is easy to see the reason behind why they want to be a separate country from Spain. Catalonia is a very industrialized region, if not the most industrialized in Spain. A quote from Fox News, "Because of it's own cultural identity, those in favor of Catalan independence have pushed for the region to become separate from Spain. Supporters also believe that they have given more to the Spanish Government than they have gotten back." If Catalonia has truly given more to their government than they have received, why would they want to stay as a part of Spain? It is said that their movement has been a violation of the constitution, which an English translation states "that should an autonomous community break the law or disregard the constitution, the Spanish government can - after following certain procedures - take the measures necessary in order to compel the (community) forcibly to meet said obligations, or in order to protect Spain's general interests. When connecting this to Unit One, John Locke's rule of government would kind of be the opposite. Locke believed that if the government has failed to promote the common good and protect the natural rights of the people, then the people have every right to overthrow it and start a new one that does promote the common good and protect natural rights. Instead of Catalonia having the right to overthrow the Spanish Government, the Spanish Government would have the capability to force the people to meet Spain's general interests. So is this truly a violation of their constitution? Catalonia has now declared independence and formed their own government, where the rules and laws of Spain are no longer a part of themselves.
If this is a violation of the constitution, what can be the end result of Catalonia declaring independence from Spain?
When looking at the foundations of government created by Locke, Hobbes, Rosseau, which would their constitution mostly resemble?
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Post by Sarver on Nov 5, 2017 16:47:54 GMT
@croll, I like your use of the quotes you chose for your response. In particular, I liked " If Catalonia has truly given more to their government than they have received, why would they want to stay a part of Spain." It does seem as though they have given more into the situation than what has resulted not so well as the outcome under Spain's ruling. I do not think Catalonia has violated the constitution. If they believe they have the resources to become their own and uphold that position, then let them. Spain cannot control what Catalonia does or does not do, they still have their own country to maintain and strengthen.
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Post by Admin on Nov 5, 2017 17:38:20 GMT
Emily, Paige and Logan have posted model original posts, well done. Nice job setting an example.
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Post by Williams on Nov 5, 2017 20:12:29 GMT
The recent uprising in Catalonia’s push for independence directly ties into unit one and John Locke’s take on government. Catalonia takes on the role of the colonists and Spain as Britain in this narrative. The article from the Telegraph states that, “It is one of the wealthiest regions of Spain - it accounts for 19 percent of Spain’s GDP”. The people of Catalonia feel as though they are being taken advantage of as the colonists did when they began to be taxed by Britain. Spain has said that the push for independence is unconstitutional and has sent Spanish troops to occupy Catalonia. They have also been making an attempt to imprison all those involved with the Catalonian government. Although this action of secession is unconstitutional in Spain’s eyes, the actions of the Catalonian people are following those that Locke speaks of. The people of Catalonia feel as though the Spanish government is not prompting the common good for its people therefore they have taken actions to overthrow it. Although this initiative is backed by Locke’s theories and the good of the Catalonian people it would have a grave effect on the Spanish people. With Catalonia being the wealthiest region in Spain the loss of their income would put much of Spain closer and closer to poverty. Multiple countries in the EU as well as the United States have spoken out against Catalonia supporting Spain’s claim that these action are unconstitutional. The Spanish prime minister has asked his people to remain calm and the european council president has spoken on the situation saying, “I hope it favours force of argument, not argument of force.” Although despite this there are still Spanish troops in Catalonia which have caused tension and several accounts of violence. Now the Catalonian people are facing the ultimate test of self-determination.
Q: Do you think the detrimental economic effects on Spain are enough reason for Catalonia to reconsider indepence?
Q: Does a country pursuing independence always result in violence and resistance? Is there a civil way to independence?
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Post by Williams on Nov 5, 2017 20:20:57 GMT
@martin One of the articles had touched on how Catalonia has been tossing around the idea of independence for years. This recent actions towards that goal is premeditated and part of a strong belief that Spain is hurting them more than it is helping. So I believe their controversial steps to independence are a unique situation, one that other nations would be hesitant to involve themselves with.
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Post by Williams on Nov 5, 2017 20:28:28 GMT
@sarver I don’t believe the Spanish government has implemented a law against self determination. They have implemented a law for the protection of their democracy. Much like we discussed in class the people under any government rule enter into a social contract in which they give up a portion of their freedom for protection. This law against leaving is the people's price to pay in exchange for the protection and prosperity that comes with each and every region being under the same government.
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Post by McHattie on Nov 5, 2017 21:21:53 GMT
The region of Catalonia is located in the northeast region of Spain and is home to 7.5 million people. Containing their own culture and language, the region is known to be very independent. Ironically, Catalonia has recently declared their independence from Spain. Why did they want independance? The answer lies within the statement from a Fox News article, “Because of its own cultural identity, those in favor of Catalan independence have pushed for the region to become separate from Spain. Supporters also believe that they have given more to the Spanish government than they have gotten back.” In my opinion, having their own “cultural identity” is not a fair reason to succeed. To support my claim, one can look back at Unit 1 at John Locke’s ideal government. He states, “...when a government tries to take away or destroy the life, liberty, or property of the people, the government puts itself in a state of war with the people. At this point, the people do not need to obey the government anymore and have any right to overthrow it.” Spain did not destroy the life, liberty, or the property of Catalonia’s people, therefore Catalonia’s claim of having their own cultural identity is a weak reason to succeed. On the contrary, Catalonia’s other claim of giving more to the Spanish government than they received, is one I can support. Catalonia is one of the wealthiest regions in Spain and is the most highly industrialized. According to The Washington Post, “It houses many of Spain’s metalworking, food-processing, pharmaceutical and chemical facilities. The region has about 16% of Spain’s populations and accounts for 20% of the national economy.” Although Catalonia gives so much to Spain, they get little in return just like how they said. A Washington Post article states, “In 2014, Catalonia paid about $11.8 billion more to Spain’s tax authorities than it received.” This clearly demonstrates the lack of contributions Spain makes to Catalonia. The whole situation is similar to America’s declaration of independance from Great Britain. The British government introduced the Stamp Act on the colonists. This act required Americans to pay a tax on every printed paper they used like licenses, newspapers, and even playing cards. Just like Catalonia, the colonists believed this was not fair. Both the colonists and the people of Catalonia were being robbed. On the other hand, the colonists had more reasons to break away from Great Britain than Catalonia has to break from Spain. Does this make Catalonia’s secession look unreasonable? Either way, Catalonia has successfully gained their independence from Spain, but how long will it last?
Q1: Catalonia clearly contributed a lot toward Spain’s economy, will Spain be able to make up for this loss? Will their economy collapse?
Q2: If Spain gains back control of Catalonia, do you think the people of Catalonia will continue to fight for their independence?
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Post by Kaleb Kamerer on Nov 6, 2017 1:24:55 GMT
Kaleb Kamerer pd.11
Catalonia new gained independence is causing controversy among Spain, but also the entirety of Europe and world. Catalonia has no support system, nor constitution behind them, therefore Catalonia’s new found independence will not last long. Catalonia, once part of Spain, recently took a vote to gain independence and won 70 to 10 with 55 people not voting. This sparks conflict worldwide because Spain power over Catalonia is now over. This raises eyebrows because now other regions in certain countries may try to gain independence from their original authority and become a republic. To continue, Spain is a sovereign state therefore has control over Catalonia, but Catalonia gained independence by having a vote; this vote is considered illegal by the Spanish court. Although, they do not have control over Catalonia anymore, they believe it would be best for the nation if they stayed with Spain. Instead, of going upon this situation civically, Spain's prime minister decided to do it forcefully. He shows this by stating, “Within hours of an emotional vote by the Catalan Parliament, Spain’s prime minister announced that he would dismantle Catalonia’s government, suspend its ministers, dissolve its upstart legislature, take over the regional police and call home any Catalan diplomats abroad.” This is what European Council president fears will happen. Catalonia’s independence will also be short lived because of the support of America. Trump stated that they are behind Spanish and government in keeping it strong and united. To continue, Spain also has other European countries, not even considering Catalonia a republic. Therefore, Catalonia has no support besides itself. Also, Catalonia’s power will be short lived because of Spanish Constitution. For instance, Article 155 grants Spain full power over Catalonia. To continue, Iglesias brings a very strong point to the table by stating, “We are against the declaration of independence, not just because it is illegal, but because it is illegitimate.” If Catalonia’s nation stays independent from Spain, this will be the beginning of a worldwide controversy among nations, In conclusion, Catalonia’s independence will not last long, but if it does it will bring issues into other countries.
1.Who has a stronger argument Catalonia or Spain? Explain.
2.Will this cause controversy in other countries? If so which ones.
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Post by Croll on Nov 6, 2017 1:30:32 GMT
@mchattie
Great question on Spain and if they will have the capability to make up for such a significant loss. When they lose such a lucrative, industrialized area, how will they be able to bounce back economically? Catalonia has the highest GDP of any region in Spain, producing almost 1/5th of the whole country's economic output. The loss of Catalonia will have a great significance to the future of Spain.
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Post by Croll on Nov 6, 2017 1:40:56 GMT
@kalebkamerer
When looking at who has a stronger argument, it is difficult to say which area does. Catalonia wanting to gain Independence from Spain displays many things. They are financially stable enough to break off into their own country. They are tired of putting in way more than they get back. But the controversy lies within the question of is this a violation to the Constitution of Spain? Good questions!
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