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Post by Kingerski on Nov 6, 2017 1:52:24 GMT
Beginning at the start of October, the region of Catalonia declared independence against the country of Spain. According to Spanish government, however, this decision will not last long. Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy put into action Article 155, which allows the central government to take control over any one of the 17 regions, as stated by Fox News. This move by Catalonia is supposedly “unconstitutional” because it is a violation of the laws and of the democracy of Spanish government. In the same article from Fox News, it’s stated that a Spanish judge is issuing a warrant for the arrest of the Catalan ex-president, Charles Puigdemont. Due to this statement, Puigdemont fled to Brussels for his own safety. Additionally, it is quite obvious that the people of Catalonia would like to secede, and by the philosophy of John Locke, they have the right to. Locke developed the concept that when the government fails its people, they can overthrow it. This can be connected to Unit One’s lesson because in our situation, the colonies decided that they had enough of Great Britain’s unfair rule and declared their independence, much like what is happening with Catalonia and Spain. Despite the similarities, the outcomes of the situations can end differently. With the colonies versus Great Britain the deciding factor came from the end of the Revolutionary War, whereas a war between Catalonia and Spain can be avoided. However, the Washington Post reported a comment which came from the European Council President Donald Tusk, “I hope the Spanish government favours force of argument, not argument of force,” essentially saying that the Spanish government could utilize harsh tactics to regain control of the Catalonia region. Hopefully, this declaration of independence does not come down to riots and war, but can instead be peacefully compromised and resolved.
Q: Does Catalonia have the right to secede from Spain despite their constitution forbidding it?
Q: If it comes down to war, what do you think the outcome will be? What will be the long-term effects?
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Post by Howell on Nov 6, 2017 2:32:56 GMT
In the northeast of Spain is the regions of Catalonia. Even though it is part of Spain it is very independent. So independent that they have there own laws, there own language, and their own culture all together. This region Catalonia is one of the richest and most industrialized area of Spain. This is mostly in manufacturing. Catalonia is very self-governing and even have their own parliament and executive which they call Generalitat. Catalonia is in a state of wanting to succeed from Spain and is led by Puigdemont. This is because they have and want their own cultural identity. They also believe that they have given more to Spain then they have gotten back. To gain independence Catalonia has had a vote that took place on Oct. 1. The results of the voting showed that 90% of the 2.3 million citizens who voted chose independence. Meanwhile fewer than half of eligible voters participated in contested referendum. This led to 900 people injured due to Spain police and Catalonia citizens getting into a fight. Spain had a response to these events happening in Catalonia with Dowling saying “will see fracture between hardliners and the pragmatic people in Catalonia who already are seeing economic fallout.”. Spain also states that the voting that took place on Oct. 1 in Catalonia voting on independence referendum was illegal. Spain says that there first act is to remove Puigdemont from power. In response Puigdemont flew to Brussels for ‘freedom and safety” and will only return if granted fair judicial process in Spain. Rajoy calls this “a clear violation of laws, of democracy, of the rights to all, and that has consequences”. Spain claims that Catalonia invoked Article 155 which is getting rid of Catalonia’s autonomy. When Catalonia refuses to recline it’s independence that threatened Article 155. Article 155 allows central authorities to take over control of any of the country's 17 regions. This allows Spain to do whatever is necessary to ensure the set obligations are met and Spain’s general interests are protected. The senate gave Spain the permission and power to put this Article into motion. This is related to what we covered in unit one because even though Catalonia is mostly self-governed but would it be able to stay standing without Spain’s government. They may need to adjust their government to be able to stand alone. When the United States separated from Britain it need a brand new government.
Q1: If Catalonia separates from spain will it be able to stand alone?
Q2: Does Catalonia have enough reason to want to be independent from Spain?
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Post by Hilliard on Nov 6, 2017 2:50:32 GMT
Catalonia's strike for independence has gained national attention over the last few weeks. The current government believes it is not getting represented equally in Spain and wants to separate. So, Puigdemont and Parliament decided to vote for independence from Spain and some of the people of Catalonia were all for it, the only problem being the Spanish government isn't. This is the main issue of the topic and has led to the involvement of direct rule of Catalonia, as stated in the post from Fox News. It has also led to the search for Puigdemont after he fled to Brussels. This is an act of Oppression by the Spanish government which is now becoming tyrannical. The people and government have tried to take care of situation peacefully, but if independence is wanted an overthrow will be needed as stated by John Locke. This overthrow will have to be a revolution in order for the people of Catalonia to get what they want. Another important point in the situation is the stance of the United States. They have sided with the Spanish Government and do not believe an overthrow is necessary. This may be in part due to the economic stand point considering America has really no reason to be involved in the situation. Despite the opposition of the United States, the Independent Catalonia would be able to survive on its own with its exceptionally high GPD and economic stability and thus should be granted independence.
Is the Spanish government considered oppressive at the moment?
Why is the United States Involved? Economic Reasons?
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Post by Hilliard on Nov 6, 2017 3:00:08 GMT
@kingerski With John Lockes' philosophy on the overthrow of power, the people of Catalonia have the right to over throw a government. The constitution may say that, but it could be changed by the people and brute force. At the end of the day all citizens are entitled to overthrowing their government if it becomes oppressive and in this case it is.
@howell If Catalonia was successful in claiming independence from Spain they would be extremely well off. Catalonia's GPD is currently higher than South Korea's GPD and they are overall economically sound. Also, they basically are almost independent with little to no help from Spain, economic wise.
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Post by roxberry on Nov 6, 2017 4:01:16 GMT
The recent movement of Catalonia to become independent of Spain has been long in the making. An article from the Telegraph made Catalonia's recent declaration seem more reasonable when it stated, “The economic crisis in Spain has only served to magnify calls for Catalan independence – as the wealthy Barcelona region is seen as propping up the poorer rest of Spain.” While they may feel justified in their actions, they are not constitutional based on the Constitution for the Democracy of Spain and for that reason their independence can’t be legitimate. However had the Spanish government worked with the Catalonian president to form a compromise the direction that this situation is headed could have seen a better light. According to Fox News, “Rajoy reportedly refused help from outside civil-society groups and lawyers to mediate negotiations between the two factions. He has also declined to engage in talks with Catalan leaders”. At this point the deficits may be more than the rewards of Catalonia’s newly declared independence. Not only is it dividing Spain, but it is raising the risk of more harm being done to people in that territory. If anything, violence should be the last resort for this kind of ordeal. A statement in the Guardian, “A tweet from Donald Tusk, the European council president, reiterated that Spain remained the EU’s “only interlocutor”, but added: “I hope it favours force of argument, not argument of force.” “ showed that outsiders of Spain are hoping this does not lead to violence either. Not only is Europe hoping for the union of Spain, but so is the U.S. According to the State Department quoted by Washington Post,“After the day’s votes, the Trump administration came down on the side of Madrid. “Catalonia is an integral part of Spain, and the United States supports the Spanish government’s constitutional measures to keep Spain strong and united.””
Because Catalonia is quite visibly of great value to Spain based on its economic
contribution, the leaders of all regions in Spain need to construct a compromise in order to restore peace within the country. The lives of citizens and peace within Spain should be more important to the government than the independence of Catalonia that has only been declared by spoken word. It is unreasonable to act violently in order to prevent people from leaving a country. Harming and killing people for becoming independent is further reinforcement for the initial act of declaring independence. Accepting the declaration does not necessarily mean that Spain can not benefit from the wealth of Catalonia, but if they create more unrest among the people, the willingness of the Catalonian leader and his people to work together with their prior country will be less likely.
Q: is it reasonable that Catalonia declared independence not only because they have cultural differences, but because they were being depended upon for the economic problems of Spain?
Q: Has Rajoy, the Spanish Prime Minister gone about handling this the right way?
Q: Does it seem like this could turn into a civil war? If so, what does that mean for countries allied with Spain?
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Post by roxberry on Nov 6, 2017 4:22:54 GMT
@mchattie -With the route Spain is headed it does not look like they will be able to sustain their economy because it is in the process of collapsing and losing Catalonia might aid that process especially if they decide to spend more money trying to keep Catalonia under their power.
@croll- When looking at the Spanish government and trying to compare it to that of the enlightenment philosophers it seems the most comparable to the philosophy of Hobbes, because he believed in the formation of a social contract which would lead to the unified acceptance of people that they are ruled by a limited number of authorities, typically a king and that once they have submitted to that sovereignty the people could not back out. with the recent Catalonia dispute this philosophy is more evident in their system of government because Spain is essentially saying to Catalonia that they have already agreed to being a part of this government so they aren't allowed so not be part of it now.
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Post by Chechak on Nov 6, 2017 4:56:36 GMT
Catalonia is a modern day colony to Spain. They feel as if they put a lot of work into making Spain a better country but Spain is not giving back to Catalonia. So as a result of this, they want to become independent, having their own government and being known as their own. This all sounds great, but will Spain let it slide? From the source the guardian, it states, “The Spanish government has taken control of Catalonia, sacked its president, Carles Puigdemont, and called a snap regional election from December.” This is why Catalonia wants to be an independent country, they are sick of being controlled. Also, this situation connects to unit one. John Locke believed men are naturally free and all deserve a common good. Catalonia has the same theory, that is what they want but Spain is overpowering them and in result they want to leave Spain. They want to take this big step because they know that they can be independent. Catalonia is financially stable without Spain, which is why they are comfortable with taking this big step. Spain is reacting back to their decision. They are forcing military rule on them to keep them in check. They believe Catalonia leaving their country is a violation of the constitution. If Spain grants Catalonia’s independence it is going to spark a movement around the world. If Catalonia wants their independence they are going to have to work really hard for it. If it happens it’s going to change things for a lot of people.
Q1: Do you agree if one country separates from their “power source” will more countries do it? Would most be successful?
Q2: If Catalonia gains their independence will they be able to survive on their own. But if they can’t, will Spain let them come back?
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Post by Magliocca on Nov 6, 2017 4:56:44 GMT
Catalonia’s outreach for independence has been a major uproar that has been spreading around the nation. To start with, Catalonia is located in the northeast region of Spain and is the home to over 7 million people. Of that country, Catalonia has it’s own culture and language and is one of the richest and most industrialized areas. Catalonia is so unique with its own cultural identity that it’s people want to push away from Spain and become their own country. So on October 1st tens of thousands of people gathered around the catalan regional government palace in the streets of barcelona to celebrate the independence vote Friday. Within their celebration they chanted for the Spanish flag to be taken down. According to the Fox News article “Catalonia’s parliament voted for independence after an Oct. 1 referendum with about 90 percent of the 2.3 million people who voted choosing independence, according to Catalan officials. However, fewer than half of the eligible voters participated in the highly contested referendum.” Spain’s Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy warned that the government’s first move will be to remove Puigdemont from power when the Senate granted him the special powers under Article 155. Rajoy also stated that the situation in Catalonia is “a clear violation of the laws, of democracy, of the rights of all, and that has consequences.” This whole situation connects with what we learned in unit 1 because Catalonia is self governed but like us all, we need a government to rely on and like we have discussed in class without a government everything would be chaotic almost like the purge.
Do you think the Spanish government is right in how they are treating the Catalan people? And why are they treating them this way?
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Post by Thompson on Nov 6, 2017 21:47:45 GMT
@paigemartin To your first question, it very well could cause other such events to happen. Much like our revolution can be tied to the French Revolution and other colonies under empirical rule who fought for independence.
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Post by McHattie on Nov 6, 2017 21:48:46 GMT
@chechak - If Catalonia is not able to survive on their own, Spain will definitely let them come back. Catalonia is the backbone to Spain's economy. Without Catalonia, Spain’s economy will definitely collapse because they account for 20% of it. Even though Catalonia did go against Spain’s constitution, they will let them come back with open arms to avoid economic issues.
@magliocca - The Spanish government is definitely in the wrong in how they treated the Catalan people. The Spanish national police did not have any reasons to “beat voters with rubber batons and drag people away from the ballot boxes.” I believe the Spanish government is using these harsh tactics show that they are the higher authority. They also used the tactics to invoke fear in other regions so they will not try to secede from Spain.
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Post by Thompson on Nov 6, 2017 21:57:42 GMT
@madiganroxberry In reply to your first question, yes. Imagine you had a friend that borrows stuff constantly, and asks you for money to pay off their debt to others, yet you never get paid or thanked in return. This could be how the Catalonian people feel about the Spanish government.
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Post by Martin on Nov 6, 2017 22:07:26 GMT
@mchattie great post! You did a good job at connecting the situation with Catalonia to our past studies. You also pose some tricky questions. I feel like it will be hard for Spain to bounce back from the loss, or at least right away. I see why Catalonia wanted to break away, why would you stick around if you're not being treated fairly? Do you just accept it? I think if Spain works on giving back to Catalonia, they will think less about fighting for independence. They must establish some sort of partnership in order for things to get better.
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Post by Kingerski on Nov 7, 2017 0:17:52 GMT
@martin Your second question poses an interesting thought in that the government could become forceful in order for Catalonia to follow orders. This is turn could become a civil war and that is not something that is wanted or needed. This puts many citizens lives at risk and is very hazardous for both parties involved. If the Spanish government does decide to use force then it needs to be done in the correct manner or else many unnecessary lives could be lost.
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Post by Kingerski on Nov 7, 2017 0:23:38 GMT
@hilliard Based on your comment that the government of Catalonia tried to take care of things peacefully, I am left wondering if they could have guessed that this would be Spain's reaction. It is in the Spanish constitution that this is not allowed and yet Catalonia went ahead with it anyway. If this case is pushed too far then war is a very plausible result and I do not believe that that is what Catalonia wanted. They may have voted for independence but it takes much more to secede from a country than a vote.
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Post by Magliocca on Nov 7, 2017 3:32:44 GMT
@chechak- I do think there is a possibility that since Catalonia went independent that other states would want to become their own country as well. Does this mean they will be successful, not really. The states could try all they want to be independent but in the end their government could be strong enough to stop them form letting this situation happen again.
@howell- I do not think Catalonia will be able to stand on it's own. Even though people hate to admit it, we all need an authority figure to look up to in certain situations to help us along. Because without the government everything would be chaotic and a mess. To run a country there has to be a "leader figure" to keep people in check.
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