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Post by Mulneix on Nov 6, 2017 0:16:17 GMT
The part of Spain called Catalonia is pushing for independence due to the cultural differences and because economically they are putting in more than their getting back. Due to strong support for separation from citizens in the beginning of October Catalonia held a referendum to decide whether or not the people wanted independence from Spain in which according to fox news 90 percent of voters voted for independence. On the surface this seems to be a logical set of events where a small part of a larger country has discontent for the ruling county that has a separate culture, and would prefer to be its own separate entity but once you realize that only half of the citizens eligible to vote actually did the referendum no longer seems to hold much weight. Even ignoring how many people voted for the referendum or how much support there is for a split the Spanish government has declared the attempt at independence to be illegal and seized control of the Catalonian government. The Spanish government would not let Catalonia leave even if it wasn’t illegal, for Catalonia’s absence would greatly affect Spain’s economy which according to the telegraph is 20 percent of Spain’s output. If Catalonia gained its independence they wouldn’t have much support and would only serve to destabilize the area and inspire others to destabilize as well. Outside governments have already stated they support Spain’s right to keep control of its territory’s and that agreements between the countries would still be only for Spain. In the end all Catalonia managed to do was create turmoil divides and show how the rest of the world would be against them.
If Catalonia managed to gain independence would any good come from it or would it have a negative for everyone?
At this stage do you think that Catalonia even has a chance of becoming independent?
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Post by Gray on Nov 6, 2017 0:34:50 GMT
Recently, Catalonia has been desperately wanting independence from Spain. Catalonia claims that they are tired of giving more to the Spanish government than they are getting back. Many citizens of Catalonia do not consider themselves to be a part of Spain and even say that they have never felt "Spanish". This country has their own culture and even their own language. However, is independence truly the best decision for them? They don't have a current stable government and they just had 9 members of their government jailed and their former president has fled the country and might be facing an international arrest warrant from the Spanish government against him according to a Fox News report.Also, Catalonia is still in debt with Spain, owing 52.5 billion euros which is a massive amount of debt for a country that wants to become their own independent country. Allowing Catalonia to become independent would upset many countries, even European countries, such as Italy and France who have been rallying with Spain opposing their independence. It would also just set a bad precedent because then any country would just feel like they could declare independence whenever they wanted and not even think about the effects of it.Fox News also claims that this decision may raise questions of democracy and democratic rule. John Locke said that if a country's government becomes too corrupt, then the people have the power to overthrow them but is life really that bad for the people of Catalonia? Sure, they are angry about taxation from Spain but isn't there taxation anywhere you would go? It just doesn't seem like profound enough reasons backing their decision to leave. Is independence really the best call in this instance?
Do you think granting Catalonia independence will create bigger problems among the rest of the world? Do you think we could even feel the effects of it here in America?
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Post by Gray on Nov 6, 2017 0:40:59 GMT
Catalonia one of the richest and industrialized regions within the country of Spain has been trying to get their independence to be able to be free. In the article “Catalonia pushes for Independence from Spain Fox News” stated that “Because of its own cultural identity, those push for independence. Supporters also believe that they have given more to the Spanish government than they have gotten back.” Catalonia feels as if Spain is not giving them basic needs they deserve. Spain started to heavily tax their manufactured work and the money was given to Spain’s capital. After Catalonia declares independence in October, Spain imposed direct control over them. Rallies became very present, those who wanted independence would not carry flags to represent Spain, they only wore white. Additionally, from the article “ USA Today” “Roughly 200,000 civil servants have said they will refuse to obey orders from Madrid, risking being punished or even fired under the special powers granted to central authorities by the nation’s Senate.” You can connect Great Britain to this topic, because they posed harsh government rules causing the colonists to leave and become independent, just like what is happening right now in Spain. In Catalonia around 90% of the 2.3 million people voted for independence. I personally believe if Catalonia has exceptional reasoning to leave their country, they should be allowed. Everyone deserves to have a say in what they want, or even need. But wouldn't the quick decision to do this have possible serious consequences in the future? Many countries are very upset about this because their government is not currently stable and they still owe Spain a lot of money. Plus are their reasons such as not truly feeling "Spanish" really profound enough to leave the system they currently have in place? This could possibly set a really bad precedent for the future. |
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Post by Gray on Nov 6, 2017 0:50:09 GMT
This case about Catalonia beginning to break away from Spain makes sense because Catalonian is already an independent country. In the Fox News article, pro-independence Catalans have stated that they do not even consider their self Spanish. Their own culture identity is not a big enough reason to separate from their own country. Catalonia also believes that they are being giving more to the Spanish government more than they have gotten back. Spain taxing Catalonia more could lead to what the king did to the colonists. Taxation was just the beginning of the colonists’ “long train of abuses”, so Catalonia could be avoiding what the colonists went through, but in Spain there is no tyrant. If there is no tyrant in Spain then should the Catalans really break away from the government over taxing and their cultural identity? There is tax everywhere, it is impossible to get away from and no one is stopping them from their culture. If Catalonia does succeed in being independent and breaks away from Spain, then other regions could want independence too. They could be influenced by Catalonia’s decision and do the same thing just because they can. The United States could even be influenced by this and states could start to break away from the government, which could cause war. Where is the line drawn? We have the right to overthrow our government if we feel like it is not fulfilling our needs, but how far does it have to go before it is actually done? Catalonia should not be able to be their own country because it could cause chaos. Even if they do become their own country, they could go to war with Spain and Catalonia could become a very poor country without a stable government. 90% of of Catalonia support the idea of independence, but they do not consider the consequences and effects that come with it. What do you think will happen if the Catalans become independent? Do you think war will develop? I agree 100%. I believe that if the Catalans become independent, many countries will be extremely angry. War is definitely a possibility as well. They want independence for reasons that are truly not that profound. The risk of war or other countries trying to do this and creating even more problems is not worth it over something like this. |
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Post by Donaldson on Nov 6, 2017 0:58:48 GMT
In the current event around Catalonia, it is very evident that the people want independence. This is shown by the already defiance to the Spanish government and laws, as well as the vote for independence. From the Washington Post the Spanish government said,"It would dismantle Catalonia's government". The Spanish government does not want this to happen and therefore it did dismantle the government by firing the Catalonia ministers and started direct rule over Catalonia. Also, they are calling it a criminal act to vote against independence, which lead to the search of Puigdemont who fled to Brussels following Spain's response. This can be looked at from both points of view. One being the fact that the Spanish government is becoming oppressive to the people of Catalonia and that it is their right to break away. Also, the representation of money is not evident in Catalonia which causes some of the anger. On the other side some may say that according to John Locke's philosophy there is not enough compelling interest to overthrow the current government. In this case the United States government is siding with the Spanish government as stated in the Fox News Article. This makes more sense in the fact that Catalonia is mostly doing it for self benefit and Spain would be better United. If Catalonia was to break way it would weaken both parties in a sense, similar to the declaration of Rights, "United we stand, Divided we fall". Also, in this case Spain would lose a lot of money contributed from the separation and the large debt owed by Catalonia. From the articles it is key in seeing Spain needs to stay United.
What will it take in order for Spain to allow Catalonia independence? Revolution?
Does the United States need to get involved in the situation?
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Post by Malinski on Nov 6, 2017 1:27:09 GMT
With the recent region of Catalonia calling for and gaining independence, there has been strong tensions between Spain and Catalonia. Said by Telegraph, “Calls for complete independence grew steadily until July 2010, when the Constitutional Court in Madrid overruled part of the 2006 autonomy statute, stating that there is no legal basis for recognising Catalonia as a nation within Spain,” this explains the tensions, explaining why the Catalans had intentions of becoming independent. The citizens of Catalonia never felt like they were part of Spain because they have their own culture and language, which explains why they would want to be their own, independent country. Spain however, is going to do everything in their power to not let catalonia stay independent for long, and it is feared by many people that Spain will not hold back, and it is said in the Washington Post, “Tusk’s remarks mirror fears in Catalonia that the Spanish government will employ riot police and harsh tactics to take back control of the region.” the question that rises though, is if Catalonia doesn’t want to be part of Spain because they are so individual compared to Spain, then why wouldn’t Spain just let them be independent, apart from the economic side of it. Although, Spain does have the right to be upset and want Catalonia to be back in their control because they are so economically wealthy. It was mentioned in one of the articles that Catalonia accounts for 19% of Spain’s GDP, almost the same level as Madrid, so that in itself could be detrimental to Spain because they now have to make up for that 19%. Either way someone is not going to be happy because Catalonia leaving spain does not just affect one country or the other, it affects both countries and everyone else in that region.
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Post by rudish on Nov 6, 2017 2:18:33 GMT
The separation from Spain is something many Catalans have been long awaiting, but is this a good thing? Catalans have their own cultures, and don’t even consider themselves to be spanish, therefore they want to be their own nation. People are left wondering if this is a good enough reason to leave. According to a Fox News article, many people who have voted for Independence from spain believe they have given more to the Spanish government than they have gotten back. If this is true and they have been treated poorly by the spanish government compares to other regions of spain, then they would have a right to make their own government and separate, if they felt it was necessary, but is there enough profound reasoning for Catalonia to separate in the first place? The Spanish government will in any way possible prevent this from becoming permanent. Catalonia will be unable to remain independent before what most people fear worst is going to breakout, war. It says in the Washington post that “Tusk’s remarks mirror fears in Catalonia that the Spanish government will employ riot police and harsh tactics to take back control of the region”. This brings up many other concerns, not just for Spain, but the rest of the world as well. Due to Catalonia’s courageous act against Spain’s government, many other countries/ regions/ or states may feel entitled to do the same, even with little to no reason why. Civil war is another topic that has come hand in hand with the discussion of separation from a sovereign state. This type of evolution has occurred before and history tends to repeat itself, so is this a possibility? Could this hysteria sweep the world and influence the minds of others?
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Post by Shaffer on Nov 6, 2017 3:30:46 GMT
Earlier last month one of Spain’s regions, Catalonia, declared to be an independent country. The two main reason for this is that, the culture that the people of Catalonia have and want to hold on to is very different than the culture that Spain. The other reason is that the government of Spain is very controlling and very content on keeping Catalonia as one of its regions. Unfortunately this is because Catalonia is one of the main sources of income for Spain and without that region it would hurt the economy severely. After reading the Fox News article on the topic it is clear how tight of a grip that Spain has on Catalonia. For example, after Catalonia declared independence the government of Spain arrested 9 of the Catalonian government members with suspicion of rebellion, and sedition. The also have a set bailout at 50,00 euros or 58,301 US dollars. Spain continues to tighten its grip on is wealthiest region and plans to do everything they can to stop Catalonia from leaving. Unfortunately us as Americans have been through the same situation before with Great Britain. Fortunately for us there was a large distance in between us making it easier for us to fight off the British. For the people of Catalonia they are very close to the people they want get away from. Which could cause a lot of problems in the future between the two.
Is there a possibly that this conflict leads to war? How would Catalonia fight and do they have enough power to do so?
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Michael James Dudich XVI
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Post by Michael James Dudich XVI on Nov 6, 2017 3:45:19 GMT
In the past few weeks Catalonia has been trying to break away from Spain. They actually have been trying to for a long time but the media is now covering it because of recent events involving the Spanish government trying to stamp out the rebellion. After the vote to break away from Spain, were 90% of the votes counted towards leaving Spain. “...in Madrid voted 214 to 47 to invoke Article 155 of Spain’s Constitution, granting Mr. Rajoy extraordinary powers to seize direct administrative control over the region and remove secessionist politicians, including Mr. Puigdemont, the Catalan leader”. This is very alarming to the people of Catalonia because their “old leader” is seeking more power to stamp the rebellion. The reasoning behind the Spanish government actions in trying to keep Catalonia a part of Spain is that they are one of the wealthiest regions in Spain. It accounts for 19% of Spain's GPD(equal with the regain of Madrid). If Catalonia left it would coast Spain 20% of its economic output and,”...trigger a row about how Catalonia would return 52.5 billion euros of debt it owes to the country’s central administration.”. This would cripple Spain's economy even more alone with the rest of the EU. One of the other big important factors of Catalonia’s people wanting to break away is the difference in culture. The people want to break away. Or do they? Only 2.3 million of the 7 million people voted to break free from Spain. Now if they truly all wanted to break away wouldn't there be more votes? Well one important factor in this would be the fear factor. After all of the big political figures being replaced and others going into exile, this would scare people.
My question for you is, is the vote for independence a true representation of the entire region? And will the Spanish leader (Mr. Rajoy)with his new power use this in the future to remove opposing people to further his campaign?
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Post by Davis on Nov 6, 2017 3:54:17 GMT
Catalonia is a region located in northeast Spain that has its own language, laws, and customs. On October 1st the Catalans took a vote and declared independence from Spain, but within hours “Spain’s prime minister announced he would dismantle Catalonia’s government, suspend its ministers, dissolve its upstart legislature, take over the regional police and call home any Catalan diplomats abroad”, as stated in The Washington Post. Spain has even arrested government officials from Catalonia and are holding them in prison in Barcelona for “possible sedition, rebellion, and embezzlement charges”, as stated by Fox News. If Catalonia would happen to leave Spain it would lose a region that “accounts for 19 percent of Spain’s GDP” and it would “cost Spain almost 20 percent of its economic output”, as stated by Telegraph. Through stuff like this though it makes sense why Catalonia would want to leave Spain. They are basically their own country with their own language, laws, customs, and if they succeeded they would have the 34th largest economy in the world. The Spanish central government though has called for a clean slate and announced that there would be regional elections in late December despite the independence Catalonia has declared. Other country’s like the Unites States are even disregarding Catalonia as a separate country. All this unrest leaves people wondering what will happen in the end with Catalonia saying they should be independent since the vote showed it and the Spanish government saying its unconstitutional and won’t let it go through. People in the US may even wonder what will happen here if Catalonia leaves since our country is in such unrest with president trump. Some states could potentially try and do what Catalonia is doing which would lead to another level of unrest.
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Post by Hinchberger on Nov 6, 2017 18:09:18 GMT
@michael James Dudich XVI original response:
The reason why one would say that the vote that took place, to decide if they wanted to separate from Spain, is an invalid interpretation of the majorities beliefs or feelings on the idea of independence from Spain is because "fewer than half of the eligible voters participated in the highly contested referendum" (www.foxnews.com). The Spanish leader (Mr. Rajoy) will probably not abuse his power in the future because he was only granted this power to stop the rebellious act of Catalonia and not for a self benefiting matter.
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Post by Hinchberger on Nov 6, 2017 18:17:50 GMT
@lindey original post:
This is an interesting question because someone could choose either side and have a valid reason for doing so. After intense thinking, I think that the "New country of Catalonia" would exist just fine because they already have their own type of government established and they are a self-sustaining "country" for the most part.
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Post by Hinchberger on Nov 6, 2017 18:30:06 GMT
@lindey response to hinchberger:
"Additionally they already are different then the rest of Spain, such as their language and politics. So if they are already different would it not makes sense to want to be independent?"(Lindey). I do not disagree with the fact that the people of Catalonia are different from the rest of Spain but how can we know if the majority of the people of Catalonia want to leave the rest of Spain when most people did not even vote on this subject matter "fewer than half of the eligible voters participated in the highly contested referendum" (www.foxnews.com). So maybe this call for independence is the action of a few which is covering the belief or feelings of the many?
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Post by burnett on Nov 6, 2017 21:15:51 GMT
@ gilbert
I agree with what you’re saying. If Catalonia is able to be independent from Spain there will be a lot of people angry, other countries as well. The topic of war might be an issue because of right now Catalonia is not free and there is a lot of violence occurring in the streets, freedom might be the last straw to cause war.
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Post by burnett on Nov 6, 2017 21:23:32 GMT
@gray
In class today we discussed that there is a lot of other countries trying to get independence and if Catalonia is able to get free from Spain there will be a lot of fighting and it will promote bigger problems in other countries. Also, it will just cause a lot of conflict, but I personally do not think that it will impact or effect our country as of right now.
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