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Post by Admin on Oct 30, 2017 23:18:38 GMT
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Post by Lindey on Nov 3, 2017 1:41:51 GMT
In Spain there has been a conflict rising due to one of the regions, Catalonia, wanting to declare its own independence. From Fox News, “Catalonia’s parliament voted for independence after an Oct. 1 referendum with about 90 percent of the 2.3 million people who voted choosing independence, according to Catalan officials. However, fewer than half of the eligible voters participated in the highly contested referendum.” This statement makes it clear that not even half of the people put their say in if they should be independent or if they should just remain the same. Is this vote really representing the people of Catalonia as a whole or just as a majority? If they are really wanting to have their own say and become independent, wouldn't more people want to vote? Also from The Telegraph, it talks about how Catalonia is different in politics, economics and language compared to the other parts of Spain. If they are already different than everyone, then would it not be reasonable for them to want to be on their own and not under someone else who does not have the same views and beliefs as them? Additionally, Catalonia believes that they have given more to the Spanish government than they have gotten back.This is one of the main reasons they want their independence, if they can not get anything in return then their is no benefit for them. Is it fair to them to put in all their energy and hard work to get nothing out of it? Also, in The Washington Post, “ The Spanish Senate gave the central government in Madrid unprecedented powers over Catalonia.” Through all of this, will their independence even last? If people are trying to work against Catalonia, will they ever be able to stand up over everyone else? Will they be able to come out victorious? Through all of the obstacles and challenges they are already having to face and through what they will have to face, even though they want their own independence, they might be in a stand still for a lot longer then they want to be and eventually they might not be able to move forward.
If Catalonia is able to become independent for good, do you believe that they will be able to create what is best for their people or do you think that they will regret their decision to become independent and want to go back to what they were used to?
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Post by Fowler on Nov 5, 2017 15:31:02 GMT
When first reading about Catalonia and its desire for independence, it is very easy to fall on the side of the underdog. A region with strong heritage is being wrongfully controlled by the oppressive Spanish government. But as the reader looks deeper, it is interesting to find out that maybe the Spanish government is not in the wrong. Maybe it is the Catalonians who are wrongfully causing this independence uproar.
Why does Catalonia want independence? This very question is answered in The Telegraph’s article “Why does Catalonia want independence from Spain?”. The article give plenty of reasons, each one of them more baseless than the last, giving reasons like, “Catalan language”, the “Catalan lifestyle”, and their vote to secede. (This vote, hardly included half the population, which is not nearly enough to call it legitimate.) These are not good reasons to break away from a country. John Locke would be very displeased. In this situation, we see little to no signs of oppression, and definitely not anything to warrant a revolution. One good argument given is that they have a wealthy economy, and are pulling the weight for the rest of Spain. This is a good argument until you look back on the global economic crisis of 2012. The regional government was not what saved the banks and kept the economy afloat, it was the Spanish central government. Furthermore, when seceding from a country, many international corporations are going to pull out of said region. They do not want to risk operating in an unstable economic environment, and will be prepared to leave as soon as it becomes official. This can be detrimental to the “new country's” economy, even if everything goes right. The corporations will pull out despite the success of the region, the will fear for their own economic future.
Many people try to compare this to the American revolution, but the two are nothing alike. The Americans had solid examples of their oppression, and other countries agreed and were on board. Catalonia on the other hand, has no solid examples of oppression, and the best economic argument can be disproved as said before. Plus, it has no outside backing. The EU has stated that they will not accept Catalonia to be a part of their union. What scares many people is this, if Catalonia is able to secede, it will cause a global revolution. Regions everywhere, all throughout Europe, and even the U.S. will be trying to secede. It is easy to see with the circumstances in the United States. Millions of people are up in arms, believing that evil president Trump was unlawfully erected into office. If Catalonia secedes, those millions will be asking, “If they did it, why can't we?”. And that's a question that we do not want to hear. This will cause a civil war within the U.S., and possibly even a global civil war. No one is prepared for an event like this, an event that could possibly leave the word more broken that it already is.
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Post by Cole Helzlsouer on Nov 5, 2017 16:21:21 GMT
In recent events Catalonia trying to break away from Spain they have caused an uproar. The reasons for Catalonia wanting to do this is because they feel mistreated by the Spanish government. Also they believe that their culture and heritage is completely different from Spain, this is completely fine, but what draws the line is that when Catalonia held their vote on this topic they did not include everyone in the vote. From www.theguardian.com "There is no doubt that the Catalan leadership acted illegally in holding the referendum". Catalonia has no solid reasons for breaking away from Spain. They want just simply want to break off to form their own form of government. From The Washington Post “What happens now is unclear, though the newly declared republic will struggle to assert itself. Spain’s Constitutional Court will judge the unilateral assertion of independence illegal, and few countries in Europe have shown any willingness to recognize an independent Catalonia”. This quote shows that nobody truly knows what is going to become of Catalonia, whether they can survive own their own as a country or if they will fall back into the hands of Spain. For the future of Catalonia what will happen? Will they be able to accomplish what they want as a country? Will they get the benefits they thought they would for becoming their own country? |
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Post by Gilbert on Nov 5, 2017 17:44:18 GMT
This case about Catalonia beginning to break away from Spain makes sense because Catalonian is already an independent country. In the Fox News article, pro-independence Catalans have stated that they do not even consider their self Spanish. Their own culture identity is not a big enough reason to separate from their own country. Catalonia also believes that they are being giving more to the Spanish government more than they have gotten back. Spain taxing Catalonia more could lead to what the king did to the colonists. Taxation was just the beginning of the colonists’ “long train of abuses”, so Catalonia could be avoiding what the colonists went through, but in Spain there is no tyrant. If there is no tyrant in Spain then should the Catalans really break away from the government over taxing and their cultural identity? There is tax everywhere, it is impossible to get away from and no one is stopping them from their culture. If Catalonia does succeed in being independent and breaks away from Spain, then other regions could want independence too. They could be influenced by Catalonia’s decision and do the same thing just because they can. The United States could even be influenced by this and states could start to break away from the government, which could cause war. Where is the line drawn? We have the right to overthrow our government if we feel like it is not fulfilling our needs, but how far does it have to go before it is actually done? Catalonia should not be able to be their own country because it could cause chaos. Even if they do become their own country, they could go to war with Spain and Catalonia could become a very poor country without a stable government. 90% of of Catalonia support the idea of independence, but they do not consider the consequences and effects that come with it.
What do you think will happen if the Catalans become independent? Do you think war will develop?
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Post by Pierce M on Nov 5, 2017 18:28:59 GMT
We know that catalonia wants independence and the majority of those people in the region want the same, so why does spain still want them there since they openly defied the spanish government and laws. Well the biggest reason is that cationalia provides for about ⅕ of spain's economy. Thats a lot, but thats is only half the story. The other half is why catalonia wants to succeed, again it is pretty simple, they have a different culture and they feel as if they have not been compensated with supporting the country with its wealth. Many people wonder what the implications this succession will have on europe. I think it will cause more peoples in similar situations to want independence. Since the Spanish government has deemed this independence voting unconstitutional many believe that it might lead to violence. Both sides have expressed that they wish it to remain nonviolent yet they said they will be willing to. This is disconcerting because it will mean civil war and that would damage more than just relations. We can relate this to what we learned through Locke's ideals. Locke would be disappointed in the catalonian government for trying to succeed since from the surface it seems that there is not much of a basis for such a drastic action. When you look deeper into the constitution of the spanish government it is severely limiting the catalonia. It is quite difficult to relate what is going on in spain to our own constitution because they are fortunately different because they are having problems that we are not experiencing yet.
Is there ground for civil war in spain if they cannot come to an agreement, Is it inevitable because their cultures are different and they are feeling used? What can Madrid do to calm the population of spain in the times of unrest?
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Post by burnett on Nov 5, 2017 18:57:45 GMT
Catalonia one of the richest and industrialized regions within the country of Spain has been trying to get their independence to be able to be free. In the article “Catalonia pushes for Independence from Spain Fox News” stated that “Because of its own cultural identity, those push for independence. Supporters also believe that they have given more to the Spanish government than they have gotten back.” Catalonia feels as if Spain is not giving them basic needs they deserve. Spain started to heavily tax their manufactured work and the money was given to Spain’s capital. After Catalonia declares independence in October, Spain imposed direct control over them. Rallies became very present, those who wanted independence would not carry flags to represent Spain, they only wore white. Additionally, from the article “ USA Today” “Roughly 200,000 civil servants have said they will refuse to obey orders from Madrid, risking being punished or even fired under the special powers granted to central authorities by the nation’s Senate.” You can connect Great Britain to this topic, because they posed harsh government rules causing the colonists to leave and become independent, just like what is happening right now in Spain. In Catalonia around 90% of the 2.3 million people voted for independence. I personally believe if Catalonia has exceptional reasoning to leave their country, they should be allowed. Everyone deserves to have a say in what they want, or even need.
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Post by Hinchberger on Nov 5, 2017 20:46:01 GMT
Recently Catalonia has declared its independence from Spain and has established its own government. They decided that they were going to declare independence after the majority of people voted to depart from Spain. One reason why Catatonia wanted to separate from Spain is because "Supporters also believe that they have given more to the Spanish government than they have gotten back" (www.foxnews.com). This is a valid reason for wanting to separate from Spain because the people feel as if they are being unfairly treated by the government of Spain compared to the other states of Spain. Another reason why Catalonia wants to separate from the country of Spain is because "Catalonia is largely independent with its own culture and language" (www.foxnews.com). This is a common belief that the people of Catalonia share because they think that they should be separate because they already have there own language, government, and living style compared to the rest of Spain. The one thing that makes the declared independence from Spain invalid is due to one major fact that "fewer than half of the eligible voters participated in the highly contested referendum" (www.foxnews.com). So the people that didn't vote could have wanted to stay a part of the country of Spain. Also all of the Catalonia people reasoning for wanting to be independent of Spain is not a strong enough argument unlike that of what the American colonist had when they were declaring independence. The American colonist wanted to separate from Great Britain because they were taking control and taxing the people with out their consent which even others countries saw as being unfair and backed the colonist up in their decision for independence which the Catalonia people do not have any foreign support for their separation from Spain. This is what is happening in Spain and why the Catalonia people want to separate from Spain and how their decision to do so is invalid.
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Post by Hinchberger on Nov 5, 2017 20:48:31 GMT
Discussion Qustions:
Which side are you supporting and why?
Do you think that their action for wanting Independence from Spain is justified?
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Post by Lindey on Nov 5, 2017 21:27:57 GMT
@hinchberger
I am supporting the side of Catalonia because they have more than enough valid reason to want to become independent. They were having to watch all of their hard work not being paid off. I mean if you were going to work for example, and putting in so much work and not getting anything out of it, would you still want to work at the same place? I bet you would not, I bet that you would want to go to a different place that would be able to give you benefits for the work that you are doing for them. This is one of the ways that the Catalonia people could view it as. If they are not being treated right and not being able to live life to the fullest, then they should be able to become independent and work towards those things. Additionally they already are different then the rest of Spain, such as their language and politics. So if they are already different would it not makes sense to want to be independent?
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Post by Lindey on Nov 5, 2017 21:38:20 GMT
@gilbert
I do believe that there is a good chance that war will develop because of the people not able to be in agreement with one another. They might end up being to stubborn and the only way for them to solve the problem is to have a war, to solve it for them. It is a sad idea to have to put into ones mind that that might be the only way to get the answers that they need. Even though that would be the last resort for many, it might be the best resort for them. Until they would be able to be in a mutual agreement with one another, I fear that war would just start to come closer and closer. Now they would not be asking to live in perfect harmony with one another because not even people living in the same house hold can obtain harmony on a regular basis. But if they would be able to listen to one another's views and ideas they may be able to see where the other side is coming from and stay away from the ideas of war.
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Post by Antal on Nov 5, 2017 21:45:16 GMT
By looking at the Catalonia situation in Spain, there are many connections to be made to the material we covered in Unit One of this class. A lot of what has happened with the Catalonia independence movement goes against the government principles we learned about in Unit One. For example, the principle of popular sovereignty says that people must give their consent to be governed, and they also have the power to withdraw their consent because sovereignty rests with the people. Spain is making Catalonia’s decision to withdraw from being governed very difficult because “in September 2017, the majority approved the holding of a binding referendum on independence for Catalonia, but Spain’s constitutional court suspended the process” (The Telegraph News). Spain might claim their reason for trying to stop Catalonia from becoming independent is because the movement would go against Spain’s “common good.” The Telegraph News article says that Catalonia’s succession would “cost Spain almost 20% of its economic output.” According to the article, Spain is also upset that Catalonia still owes the country 52.5 billion euros in debt. Due to Catalonia’s impressive economic status, the region would definitely be able to make it as an independent nation. In fact, according to The Telegraph News article, “its GDP per capita would be $35,000, which would make it wealthier than South Korea, Israel, or Italy.” The negative effect Catalonia would have on Spain if they became an independent nation would be similar to if California decided to secede from the United States. If Catalonia’s independence is recognized, it could cause even more of an uproar throughout Spain. Already, “about 900 people were treated for injuries after voting turned violent when Catalan citizens and Spanish police clashed earlier this month” (Fox News). Looking at the bigger picture, Pamela Radcliff says it best when she says that Catalonia’s push for independence “raises questions of the future of democracy and democratic rule” (Fox News).
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Post by L.Pierce on Nov 5, 2017 21:56:24 GMT
I am greatly in favor of Catalonia independence. I personally believe this would only benefit everyone else, (except Spain, of course) and be able to get more trade with the rest of Europe.
A quote directly from the CNN article state, "Located in the northeast region of Spain, Catalonia is largely independent with its own culture and language. " This is big case more people are using from independence. They are basically their own country to begin with, and can gain a lot of financial benefits from not having control by Spain. They are the richest part of Spain, and therefore,"Secession would therefore cost Spain almost 20 per cent of its economic output, and trigger a row about how Catalonia would return 52.5 billion euros of debt it owes to the country’s central administration." Catalonia has a big role in Spain's Economy, and if they leave Spain, (Which they want to, but Spain said no) it would cause a big problem for them, but a lot of opportunities.
Q: What are some of the benefits of Spain if they leave? What are some problems of secession?
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Post by L.Pierce on Nov 5, 2017 22:08:17 GMT
@hinchberger I believe leaving Spain is justified simply by their history and background. Their don't have the same language, different cultures, and have very different laws. From the telegraph article, "It's not just in politics, economics and language that Catalans see themselves as different." It goes into deep detail how they have diferrent style of food, and different football teams, and how such big rivals they are. That is why this is justified. L. Pierce M It might be hard to say, but if kind of unruly behavior is persistent, it might come to it. For example during the elections, it is depicted as rioting, and Spanish Police stopping polls. From the Fox news article, "About 900 people were treated for injuries after voting turned violent when Catalan civilians and Spanish police clashed earlier this month." It is seems that this is a big problem. As seem from this election, it might turn into a bloodly conflict, and it could be a bad relationship in all of Europe, ruining the "peace" in recent years. *In my original post, I meant Fox news, not CNN. |
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Post by L.Pierce on Nov 5, 2017 22:09:08 GMT
/\ I meant my second reply was to Max, sorry.
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