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Post by Admin on Oct 8, 2017 10:48:34 GMT
Makayla is the administrator this week  she will post the context, articles and discussion questions. Original post- approximately 300 words Respond to two of your peers using @studentsname twice  |
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Post by Makayla Rieder on Oct 8, 2017 19:47:14 GMT
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Post by Makayla Rieder on Oct 8, 2017 20:18:53 GMT
Catalonia is splitting from Spain and so far it hasn't been very pretty. The Catalan citizens were all fairly peaceful, but Spain still ordered their police to do whatever necessary to stop this vote. Honestly, this much violence was not needed. Most of the citizens followed orders and didn't want to fight with the police but they were still attacked. Dragging people and shooting rubber bullets at the peaceful citizens was totally unnecessary and could have been avoided. As for the economy of the 2 regions, Catalonia will probably end up being okay without Spain economically because Catalonia was one of the richest parts of Spain. They have Barcelona tourism and many of the biggest industries in all of Spain to support them and help them get on their feet, but Spain as a whole most likely won't be as lucky. Catalonia makes up 1/5 of all of the currency brought into Spain, so now they'll only have 4/5 of that to keep going. Without anyone's help, Spain's economy will probably plummet. I feel that Catalonia will declare independence pretty soon and then all heck will break loose. Spain will be mad at Catalonia because they weren't loyal and no one else will know what to say because they don't know who's side they should be on. Maybe Catalonia will end up becoming a world power and have a stable government, it's very unlikely but it can happen, an example being the American Revolution. Maybe they will go into a system of government that works for them and they'll be happy with that. The most probable outcome of this revolution is that Spain will be lost for a little bit but become stable again and learn to live without Catalonia and Catalonia itself will have a hard time for awhile and maybe there will even be another revolution somewhere in the future for the, whether that being a bad constitution or bad monarch, no one will know until it happens.
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Post by Maddy Crighton on Oct 12, 2017 22:10:37 GMT
The call for independence of Catalonia from Spain has been growing since 1714, however has never been achieved. Catalonia recently has voted for their independence once more, but ran into some problems along the way. Spain is composed of regions each with their own government. However, Spain's national government is located in the capital of Madrid. Even though the majority of Catalonia wants to succeed, the national government says the act is "against the constitution." Disregarding this statement, Catalans still held an election for their independence but were interrupted by the invasion of police officers at multiple polling stations. The police during these invasions were very violent towards the Catalans and injured 900 of them. The Catalans were simply voting for something they believe in and did not deserve to be threatened and injured. The national government sent the police officers to collect the ballot boxes and to potentially scare the Catalans from voting for independence. If Catalonia were to succeed, Spain's economy would decrease due to the fact that Catalonia makes up 20% of it and is also Spain's richest region due to tourism. In 2014, Catalonia paid about $11.8 billion more to Spain's tax authorities than it received back. That's a lot of money for one region. Spain's social structure will also be affected since Catalonia makes up about 16% of their population and there will be one less region to control in their country. If Catalonia continues to revolt against the national government of Spain more conflict will break out, but I do not believe that another "revolution" will happen. If a country wants to succeed they eventually will do so, against the constitution or not.
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Post by Maddy Crighton on Oct 12, 2017 22:23:24 GMT
@makayla I agree with you on that the police took the matters too far with injuring about 900 of the Catalans, however I disagree with you that Catalonia will become a world power due to their main income is on tourism and nothing else. How will they be able to sustain themselves with only one source of income? Also, if they succeed they will have a hard time trying to make allies and finding countries to trade with.
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Post by Olivia Girdwood on Oct 13, 2017 12:07:50 GMT
The way the police, who were acting under orders, treated the voters was by no means the right way to go about stopping them. There was no need for that much violence to be had, all the Catalans did was hide the ballots and boxes. They did not try to harm Spain in any way besides possibly gaining their independence and changing the financial status of Spain. There was no violence to be had, it appeared, until Spain started it. Because of these actions they seem to be on the brink of a revolution, based on these articles. Spain, though, is going to do everything in their power to stop the revolution, and in turn independence, from happening. this being said, if a revolution were to occur, it would not go over very well for the Catalans. Spain is larger that Catalonia, and has the military part of the country, so they have more man and firearm power. If the Catalans were to start a civil war, they would be decimated. They may have some of their population armed, but will not be able to successfully combat Spain's militia. If Catalonia were to gain their independence though, it would effect Spain economically. They will be losing close to 20% of their income as well as potential army members because of the loss of the population. Socially, the two countries would play a game of who can give the cold shoulder the longest, even though they are stuck right next door to each other.
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Post by Olivia Girdwood on Oct 13, 2017 12:11:49 GMT
@maddycrighton I see exactly what you are saying, but did you mean that by removing 16% of the population and having one less region to control as a good or a bad thing? The way it was worded I can see both ways you could take it. And also how would a region go about succeeding if the mother country will not let them? Would that not just cause more fighting?
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Post by Olivia Girdwood on Oct 13, 2017 12:16:33 GMT
@makaylarieder I get what you are saying, but I feel like comparing this possible revolution to the American Revolution is like comparing apples to oranges. For one, America and England were separated by an ocean... Spain and Catalonia are separated by an imaginary line called a border. For two this is in two different time periods, there are many different factors attributing to the continuously arising problems. There is a few other differences but I feel these two really separate them into two different categories.
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Post by Laura Gutauskas on Oct 15, 2017 19:42:46 GMT
Catalonia has faced the pressure of being held back for centuries and finally made it to a point of showing progress in 1932 to become the Catalan Republic. Although, this was quickly ripped away in 1939 by the unruly Francisco Franco, which created more disorder and has only grown since then. The region has had to withstand ill treatment, including attempts of erasure of their language & culture, and now brutality from the Spanish police force. In one of the videos, you can clearly see an older man get kicked square in the face by one of the police. If the point is to keep the people in favor of Spain’s rule, why treat them like they’re a plague? Their actions have been frowned upon across Europe, yet other countries are standing back when it comes to getting involved, as this is an internal issue. There continues to be a fight over whether or not a vote for independence is considered constitutional or not, which depends on how the document is interpreted. The Spanish Prime minister and King Felipe VI both refuse to make amends for the brawling going on, despite Carles Puigdemont’s push for dialogue to occur. He also recognizes that “after each mistake, we have become stronger.” It’s obvious that nothing will stop the Catalan people from finding the route to independence no matter what barrier is in their way. Every time a polling location was compromised, they found a new place to hold the vote. As for the economy goes, Spain will suffer and Catalonia would thrive, and it’s quite deserving. If Spain had distributed returned taxes to Catalonia more fairly, this could have possibly settled down, yet Spain continues to treat them as just a means of tourism. Spain should focus on glitzing up other tourist spots if this is what they care about so much. Why do those in charge of Spain refuse to even speak about the disagreements until the entire “region drops its demand for secession”? Does this not sound counterintuitive, since the whole reason for distress is wrapped around this problem? Another point of discussion: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_world_map_changesI know this is wikipedia, but still very interesting to check out. We’ve discussed this multiple times in class, which was what made me want to look into this more; and not only has there been many changes but also some areas don’t want to recognize that change.
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Post by Laura Gutauskas on Oct 15, 2017 19:58:18 GMT
@maddycrighton I also don't see how a revolution would come from this, but the point of secession whether "against the constitution or not" is interesting. Of course, there has already been a feud regarding if voting to break away is deemed unconstitutional, yet I wonder what would result of them becoming independent if it truly is against it. And what does Catalonia have in mind as their own constitution if they make it past this point? If they have nothing planned, there could potentially be more unrest among Catalans who disagreed with breaking off in the first place. They basically won't know what they're signing up for if entirely different policies are quickly instilled into the new hopefully "democratic" government.
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Post by Maya French on Oct 16, 2017 3:01:37 GMT
The actions taken by Spanish Police were drastic in how they were applied but not uncalled for. Despite all other factors, Catalonia is still a state of Spain and is under the Spanish Government's control. Spain was simply acting in the protection of their most economically beneficial state, but the way in which they chose to act was unnecessarily violent. Thankfully there were no deaths but the seemingly uncontrollable riot police created a feeling a "big bully" type government beating up the helpless state who is just trying to better themselves. Media is everything when it comes to politics and the videos taken at riots and poles will significantly hurt Spain's global support. Overall, force was not the correct way to go at this situation. As for Spain's economy if there were to be a succession, I believe the change will not be as significant as everyone is building it up to be. With either outcome of this situation, both Spain and Catalonia will experience a decrease in tourism. Nobody wants to honeymoon in a country that was just on the brink of a violent revolution. With succession, Catalonia will be loosing many of their large industries and popularity as a tourist hotspot, they are at more of a risk economically than Spain. Spain may experience an increase in population due to anti-succession citizens leaving the independent Catalonia which may help cushion the blow of succession, or worsen the situation, depending on how the Spanish government handles it. Those anti-secessionists that remain in Catalonia may choose to revolt but the stability of either side of that revolution will be shaky at best and it will most likely result in total disaster, leaving Catalonia in confusion and ruin. What ever the outcome may be, there is a long road ahead to regain a state of stable "normality"
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Post by Meghan Miller on Oct 16, 2017 21:42:26 GMT
@laura I believe that they are trying to use that elementary tactic of "if i don't talk about it, then I don't have to deal with it" :'D. But truly if Spain gets Catalonia to drop the referendum then Spain will get the upper hand and Catalonia can not use the information to support their cause because the situation is "dropped". Spain wants to stronghold Catalonia into a corner (for good reason) without the need for interference from outside countries.
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Post by Meghan Miller on Oct 16, 2017 21:48:08 GMT
@olivia Do you think that the riot police were being fed a false version of the truth? They were very likely being told that the Catalans were violent and had weapons (keep in mind that they are RIOT police so they are trained necessarily to interfere in escalated situations or viewed the situation as escalated). We are only fed a small portion of the information that is available on the situation and with every news source there is bias.
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Post by Meghan Miller on Oct 16, 2017 21:49:42 GMT
Catalonia's independence has been a very polarizing topic in Spain, both with the events on the day of the vote and the effects a free Catalonia would have on the world. The national police over reacted or reacted incorrectly with the voters. Even though the national police were just following orders, they could have gone about handling the situation differently. The videos circulating of the police shooting the, seemingly, peaceful protesters with rubber bullets only escalated the situation in the national limelight. The police most likely saw the situation as a more intense one than it was, to the police all of the protesters and voters were committing an act of treason. King Felipe VI even said that he viewed “the organizers had put themselves out of the law” (BBC). They were probably fed information about how the protesters would get violent and how they were traitors to Spain for holding the election. Outsiders must remember the other side, the police are people too and this is a very polarizing issue for Spain.
If Catalonia did get its independence from Spain, there would be many changes to both Spain and Catalonia. The economic output of Spain would decrease by at least 20% (the amount of the national economy that Catalonia makes up). Spain relies on 16% (roughly) of its population to fund 20% of the wealth, it does not seem like much until you take into account that Catalans are not all wealthy people (there is still varying degrees of wealth and classes in the wealthiest area of Spain). If anything Catalonia would be at risk of losing trading partners from the E.U.. The social structure in Catalonia would be vastly different if it gained independence because a larger group of its population would be involved in the political structure (holding seats and representing the multiple parts of Catalonia). This shift would not be too large (as in the cases of the Atlantic Revolutions) however, because of the amount of autonomy they were given in 1932 (becoming the Catalan Republic). The rest of Spain would have to adjust for their heavy economic loss (with the possibility of other parts of Spain having to industrialize).
A revolution for Catalonia has been in the works since 1714, with the capture of Barcelona. Many Catalans never identified as Spanish and were ingrained with the idea that Spain and Catalonia are separate (even still name-calling Spanish loyalists). The reaction of King Felipe VI gave to the referendum (not calling for an open discussion and villainizing the Catalan rebels) and threatening Article 155 will lead to further unrest. If Article 155 would be put into practice then there is no question of a revolt. Assuming that there was a revolt, it may spark more breakaways throughout Europe (the entire reason the EU wants to avoid involvement).
Spain will do everything in their power to keep its most profitable state, even if that means a military state or martial law. Money makes the world go round and secession of Catalonia means a money drain for Spain. Spain wants Catalonia to stay and Catalonia wants to go, without any legal disputes or peaceful discussion then the only other option is for turmoil to ensue.
My question: Do you think they will put article 155 in effect (removing Catalonia’s parliament)? If so how do you think Catalans will react?
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Post by Laura Gutauskas on Oct 16, 2017 22:28:30 GMT
@meghanmiller Considering how set Spain is on keeping ahold of Catalonia makes me lean towards thinking that they would use this backup option. It seems similar to the "nuclear option" which was altered back in April to include the Supreme Court nominees as a sort of payback to Democrats for their use of it in 2016. The political feuding is stifling any further advancements between Spain and Catalonia mainly because the issue of constitutionality is not settled. This way, if they still can't agree on something, Spain will take the upper hand by removing any other options for Catalonia through Article 155. Of course, Catalans will be extremely unhappy and most likely feel as if they're being oppressed with such a silencing act.
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she will post the context, articles and discussion questions.