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Post by Ridgeway. on Nov 6, 2017 4:32:26 GMT
Catalonia, a state of Spain, decided to declare it’s independence and decided to secede from Spain. Naturally, Spain didn’t appreciate or approve of it at all, and like an overbearing parent, grounded Catalonia. Sadly, Catalonia’s basically adopted (the process took place around 1150 (Telegraph UK)), but has enough similarities to Spain that heads didn’t butt too much —- they got along —- yet Catalonia’s tired and wants to fly solo. Why? Turns out, you can only be forced to conform to what your older sibling wants before you snap. “Why do I have to speak Spanish? I have my own language! I have my own food! My own football league! My own laws! Let me be myself! (Telegraph UK)”
Spain: You’re /our/ state, act Spanish. (Also you contribute so much economically please don’t. leave.)
So Catalonia did what it had the right to do as a democratic institution: it voted! Fox News reports, “about 90 percent of the 2.3 million people who voted choosing independence,” which boils down to: We’re leaving! Bye!
Surprise, surprise: Spain said, “No you’re not!” and a game of hot potato began with the ballot boxes as Spanish police stormed Catalonia looking for them. The ballot wasn't legal, so why let it linger? Spain intervened heavy handedly, throwing Catalonia under lock and key. USA Today makes a point of mentioning, “Spain made the takeover official by publishing special measures online early Saturday in the country’s gazette.”
Let’s take a trip down memory lane to colonial America: England, thousands of miles across the sea. The colonies are originally unsuccessful in their job (generating raw material for England), and England has become “Eh, whatever,” regarding the colonies. Cue the French and Indian War, and England gets the bright idea to tighten the reigns. American colonists (who at this point had developed their own vernacular and brand of thinking) hates this, absolutely abhors it. With the power of John Locke behind them, the colonists declare independence from England, as John Locke says they have the right to. If you’re unhappy with your situation, change it. If change is overthrowing a tyrant, then do it. England, much like Spain, isn’t having it, and cue the Revolutionary War.
We have the pieces of the puzzle: region of larger nation provides economically for the mother country but has nothing in common with it. The region is tired of how it’s treated and declares independence from the big mean country. The region is in the midst of changing what they’re unhappy with, but the mother nation shakes it’s head and declines. With regards to Catalonia, will their puzzle follow the American one? Will they find independence through war, or will they head a more peaceful route? Is a peaceful route possible? Will this lead other European countries with culturally different states begging for independence? If Catalonia is successful, the very bones of Europe will be shaken to the core.
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Post by McDermott on Nov 6, 2017 13:53:25 GMT
campbell I found it interesting when you stated that Catalonia was an “economic crutch” for Spain. Your response states that Spain needs to learn how to be without the economical benefits that Catalonia was providing. This is an interesting point of view. Maybe an underlying reason that Spain wants control over Catalonia once again is due to the large amounts of economical benefits they recieved from them— maybe they are worried about being without that! I had never thought of things this way...
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Post by McDermott on Nov 6, 2017 14:05:40 GMT
@murdock
You pose an interesting question and a base connection to Unit One when you essentially ask; should Catalonia do what is best for the common good? Overall, it just goes back to the fact that what is best for the common “good” is all subjective. I don’t believe that that Catalonia will do what they think is best for Spain, simply because Spain has not been doing what is best for Catalonia. The leaders of Catalonia were fed up with they way their country was being treated, thus leading to the separation they believed was needed in the first place. They were breaking away and declaring independence in order to finally do something that is best for the common “good” of CATALONIA. Not what is best for the common “good” of Spain.
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duffy
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Post by duffy on Nov 6, 2017 17:17:33 GMT
@caldwell i agree with jackson completely. if catalonia is capable of escaping spanish rule, they will serve as an “insipiration” for other unhappy parts of the country. something like a domino effect could take place, and be detrimental to spain. this could start a movement that will impact the future immensely. and with the relationship our government has with the people, who’s to say we won’t repeat the past? a fire may be set in the spirit within certain parts of the united states that could lead to a push for independence.
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duffy
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Post by duffy on Nov 6, 2017 17:20:38 GMT
@nagy that was my initial thought. our government is shaming catalonia’s attempt to gain independence, and i truly believe it is because they fear a similar situation in our borders. i’m sure we can all agree that our country is divided during these times, and many have openly expressed their disapproval of the government. a repeat of 1861 is something that nobody wants, and that may be the motive behind us supporting spain.
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Post by Weber on Nov 6, 2017 20:08:15 GMT
In response to the recent Catalonian attempts to declare it’s independence from the Spanish federal government from which it currently belongs, other countries including the US and the EU are backing Spain, most likely to deter similar behavior rousing within their own governments. Such a meaningful declaration certainly has significance in the ideology of it all, however, according to constitutional law professor Carlos Flores Juberías, Catalonia will in no form be able to support its airports, highways, budgets, and so on, with a unicameral legislature. Perhaps other countries have come to this realization as well, and have allied with the Spanish government to reassure them that they are validated in their actions to enforce their never before touched piece of legislature, Article 155. This article grants Spain’s federal government the power to take the “measures necessary” (which have never been defined before) to repossess an autonomous region that has acted against the “general interests of Spain” or who has not fulfilled their obligations stated in the Spanish Constitution. Several Spanish officials are declaring that what Catalonia is conspiring to do is both “undemocratic” and “unconstitutional”, while the pro independence people proclaim “democracy!” on their streets. According to Webster, the definition of democracy is a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people (especially rule of the majority) and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections. Based on this definition, one can see that the citizens of Catalonia feel that they are not being properly represented, and as though they are giving more than they are receiving from the Spanish government, because of the somewhat unequal financial situation. Each year Catalonia has to give over 17 billion euros in taxes to the Spanish government, a huge contribution equal to about twenty percent of Spain’s funding, and so the federal government would take a major hit from losing such a large portion of their funds, which is potentially the one of the principle reasons that Spain is so angry. However, perhaps the pinnacle reasoning of the outbreak of rage is due to the unconstitutional and defiant behavior of their own autonomous region (much like the united states and territories who mostly govern themselves but answer to the federal government) which is very similar to how the US government tends to react harshly on those who go against its constitution. Do you think that Spain or Catalonia have the “correct” form of democracy? Is constitutionality or democracy more important in this particular situation? I agree with the statement that they would not be able to support itself once it becomes independent from Spain. Though they are giving most of the funding to Spain, the country itself still does help as a whole, and loosing that will make a downfall, as well as having a weak governing body. It is hard to infer who has the right form of democracy though since it can be seen through both prospectives, spain being the majority has the right to keep Catalonia part of their country, while Catalonia feels unequally represented and would be a better democracy themselves. |
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Post by Makenzie on Nov 6, 2017 20:11:12 GMT
duffy The points you made were very valid. I too believe this was blown to the extreme but if they want to have independence they should be able to. It seems that if the north and the south were to have split up I doubt we would become completely friends and everything would be completely fine again and I think that is the point Spain is trying to make here.
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Post by Weber on Nov 6, 2017 20:18:05 GMT
After finding out that Catalonia is one of the wealthiest places in Spain, it made me jump to the conclusion that they do not really need the government of Spain to control them. The article written by The Telegraph, says that the people have been calling for independence since 2010. According to the fox news article, Catalonia has done a lot for Spain but under Article 155 they have every right to go in and take control of the land which happened recently. In this act they got rid of Catalonia’s president, Carles Puigdemont, and the prime minister demanded a re-vote in December. This whole situation can connect to what America has gone through with Great Britain. They both used their “Mother Country” for supplies and they used the new territory for things but they can both be independent. With Spain taking away the votes of the people and taking away their right to be included makes me think about how the British started taxing the Americans without their consent. With Spain’s government calling the people’s vote unconstitutional, in my eyes, they are trying to get Catalonia to stay so they can benefit on what they are doing versus being taxed or by making less money. One thing that I have yet decided is a good or bad thing is that if Catalonia is going to be granted as an individual, is this going to cause other countries that have a strong population and a rich crowd to want to go independent. The reason I have yet to decide is because it is a good thing that people are trying to become their own state/country because it gets them out of the government they feel does not suit them. On the other end of the spectrum this is going to cause issues because people will start to leave but they will not be able to strike like they use to. The question I propose is if people start to leave and become independent, do you think the countries will stop having rough restraints similar to the ones in Spain and Catalonia? I also have questioned that myself, being that other countries will start to seek independence as well. This could may as well happen and start a chain effect, though if this does happen I could see it leading to a sort of sovereignty, since Spain did use Article 155, which they have never enforced before, to restrain them from leaving. Though this is still hard to tell what other countries will do if it does happen. |
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Post by Makenzie on Nov 6, 2017 20:19:35 GMT
@henry I agree that only a state with high population would be able to achieve independence with alliance with other states to back them up. I believe that in a certain stance America would understand because it is a democracy and the people do get a say but people would be hesitant in letting them leave. America would be willing to try and find a compromise if achievable first.
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Post by Henry on Nov 6, 2017 21:21:32 GMT
Confer you raise a very interesting point about Spain’s intentions and reasoning for keeping catalonia. I believe that Spain would want to keep Catalonia just for territorial reasons even if they were not as wealthy. However if Catalonia turned into a poor crime filled region that only serves as a problem to Spain then they may grant them independence to disassociate the crime with Spain.
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Post by sierranagy on Nov 6, 2017 23:16:19 GMT
@connorb
In response to you question of how the world will react, other countries have made it pretty clear that they fully support Spain and their decision to more or less take back what is theirs, due to the unconstitutional actions of Catalonia, their territory. Many, (constitutional law professors as well as Spanish officials) have stated that Catalonia will not even have the means to support itself, not financially, but it will be their government that will not be powerful enough (having only a unicameral legislature) to run the entirety of the region without the outside guidance that they have relied on in the past from Spain. Other countries perhaps sensing the weakness of Catalonia have automatically chosen to support Spain, under the suspicion that the region upon becoming Independent will be doomed to failure.
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Post by sierranagy on Nov 6, 2017 23:33:18 GMT
@makenzie
To address your question of whether or not this would happen in America, the answer would have to be yes. There have been unsuccessful attempts to succeed the union although it is technically illegal, and there are likely to be more attempts in the future in the face of new legislation, actions, or statements by government officials that enrage a region or even a state so much that they make a move to try and declare independence from America. You also asked whether or not Spain would be more willing to cooperate with it’s region's requests after this debacle has settled, an excellent question that could be answered one of two ways. First, Spain could be much more lenient and gentle with it’s regions as thought they were trying to soothe an irritable child to stop it from making the same fuss that their sibling had, or, they could react in anger, and become more severe and quick to crack down whenever their Spanish Federal government and their constitution have been challenged in any form.
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Post by Gills on Nov 7, 2017 0:04:53 GMT
@valera I think that if Catalonia really split from Spain it could be very possible for other regions around the world to do the same. Other places might see this happen and think that they could do the same. It's similar to how people say that the American Revolution inspired the French revolution. Something similar could quite possibly happen again. Also, I do believe that Spain is handling the situation well. They should do anything in their power to keep Catalonia from leaving and it seems to me that's what they are doing.
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Post by Gills on Nov 7, 2017 0:17:32 GMT
@connorb I think that the rest of the world will side with Spain. It doesn't seem that Spain is really mistreating the Catalonians so it's not like they are fighting for their rights or freedom. I feel that the rest of the world will not support the idea of Catalonia becoming independent to prevent a similar crisis from happening to them. If they support it and say it's ok then wouldn't it be ok if it were to happen to them?
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Post by Stoughton on Nov 7, 2017 1:57:13 GMT
@gills You make fair points and I especially agree with what you said in reference to Spain denying Catalonia's independence; it's only economic issue. It would easier for Catalonia to be able to separate and become independent if they were not as important and vital to Spain's economy. However, they would also have a slimmer chance of being able to function without their wealth. So to answer your question, Catalonia is practically wasting their time fighting for independence. Unfortunately, it is not realistic for either Spain or Catalonia to efficient without each other.
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