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Post by hilliard on Jan 29, 2018 2:03:07 GMT
Free speech can only go so far. Where do we as American citizens draw the line between free speech and bullying or harassment? I agree with the statement, "They went right past free speech rights, residents say, and made credible threats of violence". Every person has the right to voice there opinion, but when there are threats and you are discriminating someone for their choice of religion, then that is not acceptable. The 1st Amendment should not allow harassment and bulling in there freedom of speech. "There were edited images of her face on the gates of the Nazi Auschwitz death camp. A voicemail with the sound of gunshots. There were letters sent to the home she shared with her husband and young son, who also received messages on social media." This statement was made for a CNN reporter who was covering the case. These are examples of harassment. Anglin has no reasoning for the "Troll Storm" toward Gersh except soul hate for people of Jewish religion. Neither citizens rights "win" in this situation. Anglin does have a right to say what he wants to even though is necessarily isn't right. There should however be a line drawn to protect people from bullying and harassment in this Amendment.
Q: How do you draw a line between freedom of speech and bullying and harassment without bringing up the issue of to much government intervention.
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Post by McHattie on Jan 29, 2018 2:08:26 GMT
The first amendment guarantees the freedom of expression by prohibiting Congress from restricting rights of individuals to speak freely, but where do you draw the line between free speech and harassment? This question comes into play while looking at the case of Andrew Anglin and Tanya Gersh. Anglin posted Gersh’s personal information online so that internet “trolls” could contact her through emails, social media, letters, and even phone calls. Unfortunately according to a CNN article, “Most of the messages from his readers came in the form of anti-Semitic slurs. There were edited images of her face on the gates of the Nazi Auschwitz death camp. A voicemail with the sound of gunshots. There were letters sent to the home she shared with her husband and young son, who also received messages on social media.” Although most people argue that Anglin and his readers have crossed the line and should definitely face consequences, they are just exercising their right of freedom of speech. As a matter of fact, the NPR article states, “According to police, there was little that could be done at that moment because, for the most part, the threats were more general and vague, and the trollers weren't showing up at Roston's or the other victims' doors inciting imminent violence.” Even though the situation seems immoral, Anglin and his readers did not break any laws because no actual acts of violence were committed. Also, no matter how intolerable or disgusting people find Anglin’s words, they are still protected by the First Amendment. To support, CNN states, “Speech that may be abhorrent to some still constitutes free speech…” Therefore, Anglin and his readers have not done anything wrong because their words are protected. I DO NOT support any supremacist or hate groups, but I do support the idea of being able to have the freedom to express your own thoughts and opinions. Overall, Anglin and the internet “trolls” did indeed harm Gersh emotionally, but because the first amendment protects the freedom of speech, they technically do not do anything wrong.
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Post by Howell on Jan 29, 2018 2:33:17 GMT
different story?
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Post by Howell on Jan 29, 2018 2:49:31 GMT
The First Amendment states that “no laws... abridging the freedom of speech” but when does that cross the line to becoming harassment or a threat. Residents claim that Neo-Nazi’s made threats of violence and harassment and when should that ever be “protected”. They may be able to say whatever they want but when happens when they begin to target certain individuals and using things personal to them to scare or threaten them. Their statements of harassment and violence should not be protected under the First Amendment whether they are expressing what they believe are not because it is hurting the live of other individuals. Previously courts have ruled that it’s not illegal if nothing happened or is about to happen. Even though they never did anything to the residents of Whitefish they still had them in a moment or state of panic when they had found out people didn’t want them there and where saying personal things to them and even trying to ruin their businesses. Everyone has a right to the freedom of speech whether it’s verbal, written or symbolic and it’s on of the most amazing things about the united states, but when citizens start to abuse that right that's when things get tricky. Anyone could say or do anything and put a controversial tag on it and call it freedom of speech. They were targeting and focusing on a certain group of individuals of the town them being the jew of the town. It’s understandable that it’s okay they were just jokes and memes. And no one got hurt or injured. What if the jokes and memes were targeted towards a different group of people say, mentally challenged people would it be a totally different story? It also didn’t just stop at it being jokes and memes, they were organizing a rally or parade to go through the town of Whitefish. This is taking it way to far from making a funny joke to them to making it real and dangerous to the jews of the town. It changes when they are already scared because of threats on the internet but now they talk about coming into the town and seeing them face to face. The rights of the citizens outweigh the rights of the Neo-Nazis right to freedom of speech. This is because they aren’t exercising their freedom of speech they were scaring and harassing individual citizens. Q:What if the jokes, memes, and speech were targeted towards a different group of people say, mentally challenged people would it be a totally different story?
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Post by Chechak on Jan 29, 2018 4:03:17 GMT
Our first amendment promises us the freedom of speech and expression, freedom of religion, and freedom of the press. The controversy of the amendment is when is it “too much”. Is it okay for someone to threaten you and it just being okay? A case has blown up between a neo nazi group and a jewish community. The neo nazi group, which was created by Anglin, has been attacking a realtor Tanya Gersh, who is jewish. Gersh has been receiving phone calls of gun noises, pictures of her face edited in a horrible way, and captions from the ‘Troll Storm’ saying “we are going to cremate you” and many more things. In the statement, "I understand free speech," Roston says. "But imagery directed toward Jews because they're Jews relating to the Holocaust, the message there is 'we want you dead.'"Gersh has fought this by saying these are threats to her and her family, but the neo-nazis are saying it is just their freedom of speech and expression. They have not went on her property, or harmed her in any way. . According to NPR, “there was little that could be done at that moment because, for the most part, the threats were more general and vague, and the trollers weren't showing up at Roston's or the other victims' doors inciting imminent violence.” Although the situation is very scary to the community, they could have taken other actions that went against what they were doing, like making a hate group about them or exposing them and telling the whole world what horrible humans they are. Our society needs to realize that if they are are doing things online, how much scarier it could be if they were breaking laws and doing it to them in person. I do not agree with their actions, but I do not see them truly breaking the first amendment. If they were on her property, she could call the cops for it. But the law cannot do anything if they are making the hateful actions online. They have not harmed anyone or their belongings physically. It does create great fear, I would be scared too, but how can you truly go to court for someone making comments online. They never crossed the line of free speech, they did not harm anyone.
Q: How can we truly agree on "crossing the line" of the first amendment when everyone has many opposite views. Q: How much longer will the government put up with these online threats before it gets too out of hand?
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Post by Kamerer on Jan 29, 2018 4:29:38 GMT
The fact of the matter is who do not know when a threat is imminent. The definition of imminent is, “about to happen.” For example, if someone threatens you, you don’t know whether they will show up at your house at night; by then it will be too late. When the “stormers” send threats like they do, you do not know if your safe or not. For instance, when they say, “We’re going to come cremate you,” suggests that they might actually come and physically harm to Roston. Roston, the victim of this verbal abuse doesn’t know whether the nazi’s are actually going to come and burn her. Therefore, the police should take this as a serious threat, as should the courts. Also, the nazi’s said they were going to come to Whitefish, and walk the streets protesting. This represents an imminent threat because they are stating that they are going to physically come to the town in which they live. To continue, if they say they are going to hurt you and come to the town in which you live, to me that’s an imminent threat. A personal attack becomes imminent when the attacker shows any act of violence, verbally or physically towards another. How many times has someone made threats towards someone or something that we just shrugged, then tragedy struck? The answer is too many. We(humans) need to eliminate the risk of an actual attack of happening, by eliminating these verbal attacks. These attackers need to know that there will be consequences for verbally assaulting someone, whether it be a empty threat or not. The nazi’s demonstrate very impulsive threats again, when they specifically target Roston’s family, her fourteen year old son, says cnn. We can not allow for are attackers to use the right of free speech, to strike fear into people. These threats are imminent because we do not know whether they are telling the truth. Therefore, we should not risk the safety of our victims on believing this is a false threat. In conclusion, imminent should be classified as verbal abuse. Question: Do you believe verbal abuse is imminent?Explain. Question: Should police provide protection to those who are afraid of verbal abuse?
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Post by Magliocca on Jan 29, 2018 4:41:17 GMT
The First Amendment mentions that the government can make no laws abridging the freedom of speech. So in the case of the Neo Nazis, they are protected by the First Amendment but the government doesn’t condone this behavior. There are laws that protect minority groups from discrimination, such as Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. This protects minorities based on race, color, religion, sex, and national origin. In this case the Neo Nazis are discrimination based on religion, so this overrides the First Amendment. CNN agrees that it is discriminatory behavior by stating that their threats are anti- Semitic, “Most of the messages from his readers came in the form of anti-Semitic slurs. There were edited images of her face on the gates of the Nazi Auschwitz death camp. A voicemail with the sound of gunshots. There were letters sent to the home she shared with her husband and young son, who also received messages on social media.” This proves that what the Neo Nazis are doing is immoral and illegal. The First Amendment does not state that intimidation is the problem, however it is immoral and should not be used in business or positions of power. The Neo Nazis believe that intimidation and harassment are within their rights. This leads them to use these tactics to hurt others and isolate minority groups. The opposing side would say that these tactics are a mere image of the strategies hitler used. They can also say that any statements that attack their race, religion, color, sex, and national origin can be described as harassment. In the same sense they can take any statement meant to degrade or bring down can be described as intimidation. This is usually used to solidify a position in power. In conclusion, what the Neo Nazis are doing is illegal because it is discrimination, intimidation, and harassment.
Q: Does the First Amendment override Title VII overall or does it deserve deserve to be looked at more often?
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Post by Bonetti on Jan 29, 2018 22:33:59 GMT
@kamerer Pertaining to the first question that you asked at the bottom of your response, I think that when we define imminent there should be two different types. For example, there should be emotional and mental imminence and then physical and real imminence. Although it could not have been proven that there was physical imminence, it is undeniable that there were emotional harm and imminence by the threats. Even in one of her defense pieces, Gersh states that there was emotional distress from Anglin and his followers on her life and mindset.
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Post by Bonetti on Jan 29, 2018 22:40:26 GMT
@croll Answering your question that you posted at the bottom of your excerpt: I feel as if it is completely unfathomable and unfair to imagine a world in which our government does whatever is necessary to refrain us from our negative actions. I believe that it is kind of upon ourselves to "do the right things", and that the government only steps in whenever something has "gone too far" or a major problem arises. After all, who gets to specifically decide what is unnecessary violence, other than the court rulings?
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Post by Kingerski on Jan 30, 2018 0:37:15 GMT
@thompson I like how you brought up the "troll storm" because these incidents do not seem like "trolling" to me. Trolling someone classifies as making light of a situation but in this case he is harassing her outright and trying to defend himself. No person should be regarded as inferior, and if they are then the situation should not be taken lightly.
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Post by Kingerski on Jan 30, 2018 0:52:51 GMT
@bonetti In response to your question, no I do not think that Anglin had enough reason to release personal information. You provide a lot of interesting points in why his doing so was wrong, and because of this his actions should not be protected or ignored. While some information on individuals can be found online it is not okay to share the personal information of anyone, especially of a person who is being targeted and intimidated.
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Post by Martin on Jan 30, 2018 20:15:33 GMT
@williams I agree with you in that what the neo nazis said to Gersh was harassment. I like that you included a definition of the word "imminent" to support your claim. I think this is a case the government should be able to infringe on because of that definition, Gersh had no idea when the next threat was going to come, but they came in great numbers. Since this was not the first victim Anglin's "troll army" attacked and threatened, I believe this case proves a good enough reason for the federal government to get involved. Although the neo nazis did not confront Tanya or her family in person or at her house, what they did was still very destructive and should receive some sort of punishment from the government. It was essentially cyber bullying.
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Post by Martin on Jan 30, 2018 20:27:02 GMT
@howell I like how you said the attackers voice should not be protected under the First Amendment WHEN it is harming other people. It's fine to have your own beliefs and opinions but when you inflict them on other people in a way that makes them feel in danger that is not okay. To answer your question, I do feel like this case would get more attention if these threats were say to a mentally challenged individual. Many might make the argument that they cannot take responsibility for their actions or comprehend what is being said to them. However, they are more helpless than say a Jewish person. The difference is that the mentally challenged person has a disability, and so I think the consequences would be more harsh. Either way, it is someone being personally attacked to cause emotional harm.
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Post by Howell on Jan 31, 2018 2:18:18 GMT
@sarver - To answer your question, It would end up like the case we looked at about the bank robber who sued the police because they were in his phone and thus invading his privacy, so is it worth losing the right to privacy of you devices. I agree with you stance though and I also believe that over time this is going to hurt someone mentally and physically because not only will it ruin her and you CHILD psychologically but it could lead to her wanting to end it and commit suicide. I also liked how you kept relating the topic to something familiar like school to try and make it feel more personal and easy to connect to our lives.
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Post by Howell on Jan 31, 2018 2:46:57 GMT
@magliocca - I like how you talked about CNN's stance and say on it and when you said that "that these tactics are a mere image of the strategies Hitler used." because it just got me thinking that what if history is bound to repeat itself because if our government won't stop them then who will. And to answer your question in my opinion I think that Title VII should over rule the first amendment because it crossed the line from freedom of speech to just harassment and discrimination.
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