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Post by Admin on Oct 5, 2017 13:33:55 GMT
Catalonian Independence from Spain Read the following articles Guiding Questions to consider when reading the sources: 1. What is the most significant motivating factor of Catalonian independence? 2. Analyze the Spanish government’s action during and following the vote. 3. What is going to be the most significant implication of this vote and potential independence? The following explains how you will be assessed: 1. Make at least one original post that addresses the guiding question. • Compose a response (around 300 words) • Use specific evidence from the readings in your response 2. Pose at least one question for discussion that would invite a peer to respond at the end of your original post 3. Respond to at least one of your peers directly (with more than one sentence) Scroll down to the bottom and click "Reply to Topic" Enter your name where it says guest name (USE LAST NAME), or you can create an account Type your "original post" and click create post Next, Use @thestudents name to signify your reply, this way we will not take up so much space Link to Articles: Background Information: www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/does-catalonia-want-independence-spain/www.vox.com/world/2017/10/2/16393956/catalonia-catalan-independence-crackdown-vote-referendumThe following article is an op-ed from the Washington Post's World View publication: s2.washingtonpost.com/camp-rw/?e=YW5nZWxhX21hc3RyZWFuQHNsaXBwZXJ5cm9jay5rMTIucGEudXM%3D&s=59d5bc23fe1ff635a764fb5a |
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Post by Claudia on Oct 10, 2017 0:54:10 GMT
President Carles Puigdemont and those in support of Catalonian independence argue that their country has cultural differences, as well as economic and political rights to support their desire to become independent. It's supporters believe their rich region has put way more into Spain then what Spain has done for them, which is one of the most significant motivating factors for independence. Regarding politics, Catalonians going through with the vote to be dependent, led to the violence initiated by the Spanish government, which is also significant in that this violence sparked the motivation to succeed from Spain even more. President Puigdemont stated in response to the Spanish violence that,"the result is a mandate for a unilateral declaration of independence, although he says he would prefer to negotiate the terms of secession from Spain with the government in Madrid" (telegraph.co.uk). It is also important to consider the cultural differences that influence the desire to become independent from Spain, for Catalonia possesses a separate economy, different ideas, and foods. The most significant difference is that Catalonia speaks a different language than Spain.
Therefore, based on the economic and political stances of Catalonia and Spain, as well as the regional differences in comparison to the rest of the country, it is justifiable Catalonians are fighting for their right to be independent from Spain.
Question: Are there any benefits to Catalonia being part of Spain that Catalonia will lose if they become independent?
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Post by Wilkerson on Oct 10, 2017 1:07:43 GMT
The Catalans appear to have many reasons and motivations behind their desire to secede from Spain. To begin with, they have their own language and education system, they have formed their own culture. When it comes to politics, the Spanish Prime Minister, Mariano Rajoy is part of a conservative party. This particular party is only fifth largest in the Catalonia region of Spain. The Catalan president, Carles Puigdemont has the desire to secede and he is backed by Nationalist forces that make up the majority of this region's parliament. Also, calculations have shown that on its own Catalonia would have the 34th largest economy in the world due to their technology, trade, and maritime powers. The Telegraph News site also reports that there is a strong nationalistic feeling among the region in anything from the language and cooking to sports. The resulting response from the Spanish government has been described as brutal as it led to the injury of more than 800 citizens. This occurred when the government decided to crack down and called upon the police who could be seen beating the voters and protesters who were unarmed. Along with baton beatings, the police fired upon these unarmed with rubber bullets. The Spanish police officers seized the ballot boxes from the Catalans. Some say that it was already made aware that these responses would occur of the Catalan leaders continued with the vote. The Constitutional Court had previously ruled the vote to be illegal but still the Catalans continued. According to Vox, "In the run-up to Sunday’s ballot, the Spanish Civil Guard raided offices in Catalonia, arrested Catalan leaders, and impounded 10 million ballots." After this crack down by Spain, Catalan tried to reach out and ask the EU for assistance, but all countries denied, likely not wanting to anger their powerful friend in Spain. Although a harsh response could be expected from Spain, the brutality against unarmed citizens seems to have taken things too far. Experts agree saying that the EU may not be able to ignore the situation if violence continues, and it is possible that the violence could push many neutral Catalans to the side of pro-secession.
Despite their hard and relentless efforts will it even be possible for Catalonia to legally and in terms of recognition become an independent nation?
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Post by Schmidt on Oct 10, 2017 1:22:05 GMT
The Catalonian fight for independence is on the most significant affairs in Europe at the moment. The main cause of the Catalan people’s call for secession is their cultural distinction from the rest of Spain. Differing from the rest of the country in everything from language to soccer, the Catalonian region still holds strong to its autonomy from before its integration its Spain, as stated in the Telegraph article. The Catalonians also value their rich, diverse economy and the wealth it produces. The loss of this wealth to the Spanish government, along with the need for cultural independence, finally pushed the Catalonian government to call the vote that has been a long time in the making.
The Spanish government’s refusal to recognize Catalonian comes after a long, arduous day at the polls. The Prime Minister of Spain, Mariano Rajoy, sent military and police forces to destroy the polls - they seized ballots, beat voters, and eventually fired rubber bullets. This excessive use of violence shows the intense fear that the idea of separation breeds in the Spanish government. The Spanish government had already stated its intentions to ignore any vote coming out of Catalonia, so the destruction and violence at the polls was just a way to scare the Catalonian people into submission. The Catalans, however, still seem determined to see this through and become an independent nation.
The secession would have serious implications throughout all of Europe. The Catalonian region makes up a substantial part of Spain’s economy. The loss of such a powerful and critical market would prove devastating for the country. The biggest implication, however, would be the response from other dissatisfied regions in Europe. As stated in the Vox article, a divide in Spain could lead other regions in other countries to follow suit, like the Flemish in Belgium.
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Post by Olivia Kocuba on Oct 10, 2017 1:24:48 GMT
Upon research it was noted that although the majority of the ballots voted yes for independence, there was not much of a turnout that went to vote. Does that mean not everyone agrees with the idea to split? One reason Spain is angered at the idea of independence is because Catalonia is responsible for 1/5 of Spain overall economy. They carry almost $87 billion dollars of Spain's debt. There are not many pros involved in the split, mostly the driving factor is the idea of being free from Spain's rule and having their own culture. Catalonia will not be allowed to join the EU if they desire to unless all the countries agreed to (including Spain), and that is unlikely due to the amount of allies that Spain has. There will also be trade barriers, being that it will be one of the smallest countries in Europe. Barcelona being a hub for tourism will also greatly affect Spain's economy. Catalonia could continue to use the Euro as currency, yet they will not be apart of the European Central Bank. They would have to build structures (central banks and embassies). Jobs would be lost as well. Are Catalonians willing to take on these economic losses? With the job loss and economic sufferings, it could take years to recover.
So the question is, Are the risks and cons worth the title of being independent?
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Post by Schmidt on Oct 10, 2017 1:31:39 GMT
@claudia Your analysis was very insightful and interesting. In regards to your question, I think the most significant thing the Catalan people would lose would be the support of the European Union. The EU has basically stated that they will not recognize or give membership to an independent Catalonia (vox.com). The nation would probably not have support from either Germany or France, since Germany's Chancellor is allied with Spain and French President has spoken out against Catalonia's secession.
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Post by Schmidt on Oct 10, 2017 1:36:59 GMT
I forgot to add my question to my original post. So, my question is, is Catalonia's secession, despite its importance to the people of the region, worth all the potential turmoil it could cause in other countries as other regions follow suit?
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Post by Lefever on Oct 10, 2017 1:38:00 GMT
The Catalan’s main motivation for independence is money. Catalans want to be able to control their personal finances and economy. Since Catalonia has one of the wealthiest regions in Spain, its money is used to help Spain as a whole instead of just furthering Catalonia. Catalans complain that much of their money is being used to further poorer regions while they get nothing in return. Some have said that “they funnel more taxes into Madrid than they receive back in government aid” (https://www.vox.com/world/2017/10/2/16393956/catalonia-catalan-independence-crackdown-vote-referendum). Catalans also know that they contribute to about twenty percent of Spain’s Gross Domestic product (which is the total value of goods produced and services provided in a country during one year) while only being about 0.06 times as big as Spain. This is a big contribution to Spain’s economy and another way that Catalonia is supporting Spain financially. If they were able to become independent and have full control of their finances, then they would already have the resources and the economic stability needed to get started as their own country. Currently, Catalonia produces about double the amount of exports compared to the rest of Spain (€65.1bn) (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/does-catalonia-want-independence-spain/). This and the amount of money already in Catalonia means that they would likely be able to support themselves. Without Catalonia, Spain loses a large amount of income which will damage them but not ruin them. Money is the most significant factor pushing Catalan’s to want to become independent because without money being an issue, Catalans would not feel as safe to separate from Spain because it wouldn’t be as certain whether they’d be able to support themselves.
If Catalonia wasn’t so financially powerful, would Spain be fighting as hard to keep it as a part of Spain?
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Post by Jeremiah Yard on Oct 10, 2017 1:38:12 GMT
Catalonia seems to have three main reasons for seceding: it used to be independent (which is true of many small regions of Europe,) its culture and language are different from that of Spain (although the two cultures are most likely very similar, and Spain isn't the only country with more than one language,) and it is taxed too much (which seems mostly like complaining.) However, seceding would most likely crash or severely damage its economy, and cost it more money than taxes. Not only that, but it would have little political power, as, according to vox.com, the EU "warned the Catalans that their independence drive risked leaving them even more isolated internationally," suggesting that Catalonia would not be accepted into the EU. Realistically, Catalonia has little or nothing to gain from independence. However, Spain seems to be making a bigger mistake then Catalonia. If it had simply denied the vote for independence being legal, it could have been seen as being right. However, it sent guards to violently put down a bunch of innocent, peaceful voters in a manner that suggests a dictatorship. In this way, Spain has made itself look horrible, and for what? According to washingtonpost.com, over two million people still voted. The violent raids did little but hurt the image of Spain.
Question: What could Spain have possibly hoped to gain by attacking the voters? It seems like the only possible effect could be hurting Spain's image.
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Post by Pavlik on Oct 10, 2017 1:38:47 GMT
Many Catalans wish for independence, and if that comes true, there could be many consequences that will be faced. Last Sunday, Catalonia took a vote of independence with 41% of citizens in favor of it (Why part of Spain is trying to secede — and why the Spanish government cracked down on it). The refusal of the Spanish government to recognize this has made a hostile atmosphere. From seizing ballot boxes to protesters, it can only be imagined what will happen if Catalonia becomes their own country. If Catalonia were to break away, the country could sustain itself. They are one of the richest parts of Spain and even contain people that speak a different dialect of Spanish, Catalan. With this and many other aspects, such as an economic viewpoint, it is easy to see why they may feel isolated from Spain as a whole. In this event, there will be many implications that would follow their succession. The article states “If the Catalans won independence, theoretically there would be little to stop the Flemish from breaking away from Belgium, or the Corsicans from peeling off from France” (Why part of Spain is trying to secede — and why the Spanish government cracked down on it). With this being said, Catalonia’s succession can cause disruption in the European Union and create even more conflict and some rebellion. More implications would include devastation on the Spanish side of things. Since Catalonia is wealthy and also contains Barcelona, Spain would lose some of its economic contributions. An example of this is when Catalonia helped Madrid come back from their economic crisis in 2008, as referred to in this article. More conflicts and events could happen like this in Spain and the country would be out of luck without Catalonia. As shown, Catalonia’s independence could have devastating implications to Spain and other countries.
It is said that if Catalonia gains independence, it may convince other parts of countries to succeed too. Do you think this is a reasonable prediction? Why or why not?
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Post by Pavlik on Oct 10, 2017 1:43:48 GMT
@lefever I think to some effect, Spain would still be fighting to keep Catalonia part of the country. Catalonia has more to offer to Spain than just financial aid. It seems as if they may have a little difference in culture and also speak a difference language. Plus, succession would make Spain look bad on the nationalistic viewpoint of things.
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Post by Lefever on Oct 10, 2017 1:45:42 GMT
@pavlik I think it is a reasonable prediction to say that other countries may also try to succeed. If Catalonia was successful, then it shows other areas that it is not impossible for them to fight for themselves. The motivation that Catalonia's independence could be enough to push parts of other countries to be confident enough to believe they will be able to fight and win rights for themselves.
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Post by Olivia Kocuba on Oct 10, 2017 1:46:39 GMT
@claudia If Catalonia Splits from Spain,there will be issues that will arise. One would be that they will be taken out of the EU, and most likely will not be voted back in. Secondly, they will be such a small nation that the amount of debt they carry will be devastating to their country and it will take such a long period of time to recover. Will it be assumed that their debt will be added to Spain's? It is uncertain until the split takes place. It is most likely that Catalonia will have to take on that debt. Catalonia uses Spain to sell almost 60% of is exports and once they split as well. Spain has already started boycotting Catalan goods including their wine, Cava. Catalonia has already been giving some political autonomy to a certain degree and is that being abused by the Catalans asking for more? The benefits Catalonia receives from Spain is synonymous to what Spain receives from Catalonia, even just from Barcelona alone. Barcelona is a major cosmopolitan city and being that it will be the capitol of Catalonia could help out the country, it could never take away the amount that they will lose from Spain. This has been a rising issue since 2012 with peaceful protests taking place in Barcelona, so it is not an immediate decision made by the people of Catalonia. I do not believe that Catalonia will ever be given their independence. Both countries will suffer and the benefits to staying together outweighs the benefits of splitting (for both countries). Over all, i do not think it will be beneficial for Catalonia to split from Spain for political and economic reasons.
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Post by Jeremiah Yard on Oct 10, 2017 1:47:04 GMT
@pavlik It does seem likely that Catalonia seceding would convince other regions to declare independence. It would prove to them that they can leave their countries for little reason other than cultural differences. However, it is possible that these regions would fear the kind of attacks that Spain used on the voters of Catalonia, so some areas might not secede. It would probably depend on the military strength of each region considering independence.
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Post by Wilkerson on Oct 10, 2017 1:48:45 GMT
@olivia I believe your analysis itself does a good job in answering the question, the pros are not worth the price of secession. They would be able to control their own economy, government, and have their own culture but it is outweighed by cons. Like your analysis states, their economy could be damaged by the trade barriers they will face and they may stand alone as the most powerful countries of the EU, Spain, Germany, and France are unlikely to recognize an independent nation of Catalonia.
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